http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kaycee-Nicole
kaycee-nicole · Kaycee Nicole Forum
426 From: sdenbes1@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:50pm
Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee sdenbes1@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:
> > The immoral decision was to do it in the first place, but I don't
> > think she really understood what she was doing in the first place.
>
> I don't think it's fair to say this is all the consequences of a
> single unethical decision. She made a series of them, ignoring
> numerous opportunities to do the right thing.
>
> At any time, she could have claimed that Kaycee wanted more
privacy,
> stopped updating the diary and ended the phone calls and
> correspondence with her online acquaintances.
Unfortunately, that would have been out of character for the
synthetic personality she had created.
I'm certainly not trying to claim that there was only one ethical
mistake. You're right that there were a series of bad decisions. But
I think it was more like being on a railroad track and only being
presented with awful choices.
None of which forgives her for what she did.
427 From: maudlin@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:52pm
Subject: Article on identity theft at Feed maudlin@...
Send Email
Clay Shirky makes passing reference to Kaycee Nicole in an article
focusing on yet another case:
http://www.feedmag.com/templates/default.php3?a_id=1715
From his conclusion:
"Instead of creating a neutral arms race, where spoofers
and their discoverers both get newly powerful tools, the
Net has handed the spoofers huge advantages while
forcing potentially corrosive distrust on the average
citizens. As is so often the case, the best and worst
aspects of the Internet are completely intertwined. Just
as lowered message costs led to spam, the increased
ease with which an individual can (re-)publish to the
world opens the door for Dennis Lee and his ilk, and there
is no simple solution. Until the citizens of the Internet
develop the kind of social antennae required to detect
spoofed identity that earlier generations needed to sniff
pyramid schemes and con artists, the prevalence of, and
damage from, online spoofing is going to get a lot worse
before it gets better."
428 From: sdenbes1@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:54pm
Subject: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon sdenbes1@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "John H Stevenson"
wrote:
> Aaron, what exactly is a "compassion Nazi"?
>
> John
I know how I interpreted it. There have been several times in the
past when people brought up doubts about the Kaycee story, and each
time they did, the true believers denounced them viciously for being
heartless, uncaring, cynical and generally stupid for not
understanding how important and vital this beautiful young woman was.
Being gullible merely means getting convinced by a con. These people
went a step further and actively suppressed any discussion of the
possibility that there was a hoax. Even as late as last Friday, BWG
posted a really bitter denunciation of the people who were
questioning the story.
By Saturday, the doubts being raised were too cogent for him to
ignore, and he also began to doubt. By Sunday he had called Debbie on
the phone and as a result of that she confessed to the hoax.
What justifies the phrase "compassion Nazis" (perhaps a little
extreme) was the suppression of those who doubted.
429 From: "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:45pm
Subject: Of weblogs and other stuff rich@...
Send Email
Other stuff, first; I find it kind of funny that over 50% of the posts here
are self-referrals to drive traffic to the poster's site to read what they
have wrote. Also, there seem to be a lot of people form small towns in
Kansas here.
The weblog discussion peaked my interest a bit in how people were defining
them, and so forth.
As far as I was concerned, 'weblogs' mostly use a type of software that makes
it easy to update their site (such as Blogger), and was a quick and dirty.
The less-used type of site today used to be the personal narrative (old Lance
Arthur, Alexis Massie, etc) that was replaced in many ways by the
proliferation of weblogs - mainly because weblogs have a lower barrier to
entry than a standard web page does, and the penchant for incestual linking
among groups of webloggers creates the ability to garner an instant audience,
and thus gratification in keeping the log going.
While I would never say all weblogs lack a type of artistic quality to the
writing, and a visible effort in crafting language, most are easily related
to personal diaries opened up to the web for mass consumption by strangers.
Now, I'm not denegrating weblogs thorugh this definition, as they obviously
fill a void for their readers, or else they wouldn't be so popular.
The point is, though, that this kind of site naturally seems to have social
implications. The writing is more raw, and sounds more 'truthful' or 'real'
than more creative writing. This, then, gives a fast and close connection to
the writer as the reader is immersed in the minute-by-minute life of the
writer. Little effort is required by the reader to find the points or
nuances affecting the writer. But at the same time, the depth of knowledge
may, in fact, be less. In personal narrative, topics usually are explored
more in depth, with the reasoning and deaper feelings exposed while in a
daily journal, the relationship between writer and reader is much more
shallow.
This can easily be related to the KayCee fiasco. A complex person is hard to
fabricate, and keep going. However, the mundane trials and events, as well
as the kind of on-the-phone banter that happens without the small clues
face-to-face conversations give makes an easier breeding ground for someone
like KC.
Hmm.. this note has grown way past the length I intended. Ah well. Just
some thoughts.
-r
430 From: misssassy_pants@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:15pm
Subject: hit & run misssassy_pants@...
431 From: "Tara"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Burned by Kaycee? tara@...
Send Email
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Sullivan
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 4:16 PM
Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: Burned by Kaycee?
> I don't understand. Is the humor inappropriate? I don't see how. No
> one died. People like Halcyon and BWG (both of whom still have my
> respect) may be "grieving", it's time we recognized that no one
died.
the fact that nobody died does not mean that it is possible to "step
out" of the virtual KC relationship just like that. You can grieve the
loss of an ideal. You can grieve the loss of a relationship you
thought you had. You can grieve the loss of the idea that people can
be trusted. The loss of your confidence to realize when you are being
played.
> We got played people. It's not unhealthy to take a step back and
find
> some humor in the situation. A laugh will do you good at this point.
It will come. Maybe. I didn't have a relationship with KC, just read
her blog for a month or two, and honestly I don't feel like laughing
yet. Trying to push people into humor before they are ready for it
does nobody good. Remember that for some people, this event might be
resonating with past injuries. I know it's my case, and I know there
are others.
I guess that for most people who were "involved", they aren't just
dealing with the "KC stuff" right now. You can't isolate this event
and just tell people to "get over it".
Tara
Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org
[no tables! http://climbtothestars.org/coding/tableless.php]
Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net
432 From: sdenbes1@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:20pm
Subject: Re: hit & run sdenbes1@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., misssassy_pants@y... wrote:
> kaycee nicole is featured in today's suck/ http://www.suck.com
This is a better link:
http://www.suck.com/daily/2001/05/24/
433 From: Peggy Butterworth
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:37pm
Subject: Re: hit & run pbutterw@...
Send Email
Follow a link at the bottom of that story and you get this article, with
a different slant on forging an identity on the net.
http://www.feedmag.com/templates/default.php3?a_id=1715
misssassy_pants@... wrote:
> kaycee nicole is featured in today's suck/ http://www.suck.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
434 From: dhartung@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:29pm
Subject: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "John H Stevenson"
> wrote:
> > Aaron, what exactly is a "compassion Nazi"?
> >
> > John
>
> I know how I interpreted it. There have been several times in the
> past when people brought up doubts about the Kaycee story, and each
> time they did, the true believers denounced them viciously for
being
> heartless, uncaring, cynical and generally stupid for not
> understanding how important and vital this beautiful young woman
was.
>
> Being gullible merely means getting convinced by a con. These
people
> went a step further and actively suppressed any discussion of the
> possibility that there was a hoax. Even as late as last Friday, BWG
> posted a really bitter denunciation of the people who were
> questioning the story.
Agreed. Indeed, AFTER the exposure -- around Monday night -- a
certain weblogger who shall remain nameless was even arguing that the
chance the doubters were wrong was too great -- they should have
asked their questions more carefully. Kaycee's "family" might have
been hurt. Myself, I can't see how the critics could have been any
MORE careful: doubts were raised in public as far back as September
2000, and yet it took the fictional "death" for them to gain any
traction, and it wasn't until bwg took the site down that some people
really believed it.
My response then is the same as now: the doubters only looked rude to
those who Wanted to Believe. As someone who never got sucked in in
the first place (and I'm not being proud here), I feel an objective
reading of the doubters' questions -- they're all linked over there
in bookmarks -- shows a high degree of care and civility. Hell,
Saundra even disguised HER questions in satire until too many people
e-mailed her.
Now, I recognize at the same time that people such as Halcyon and bwg
were considered pretty unimpeachable references. That was more or
less a luck-of-the-draw thing, I guess: it's not often that a scammer
like this will have a year-plus history built up with a guy who ends
up winning a Webby and knows seemingly everyone in the San Francisco
web community. I mean, that's pretty much the paper trail that the
defense always followed: hey, so-and-so says she's real; and so-and-
so says that Halcyon/bwg says she's real. It was only the fact that
bwg wasn't as well-known as Styn by a factor of 10-to-100 that
allowed people to question his defense.
It's tough. I agree, there was a herd mentality of the defenders, but
they did have extraordinarily good fallback positions. I think that's
an exception. It doesn't excuse the tautological defense, though,
because nobody even questioned that Styn and van der Woning could
themselves have been duped.
435 From: dhartung@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:39pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"
wrote:
> Other stuff, first; I find it kind of funny that over 50% of
> the posts here are self-referrals to drive traffic to the
> poster's site to read what they have wrote.
I count approximately 5, out of 430-odd messages. That's barely 1%, a
little short of your estimate of 50%.
> Also, there seem to be a lot of people form small towns in
> Kansas here.
One has come out, maybe two. You're not helping your credibility here.
regurgitate old points about blogs
> The point is, though, that this kind of site naturally seems to
> have social implications. The writing is more raw, and sounds
> more 'truthful' or 'real' than more creative writing.
That's an unnecessary slap. Were Kerouac and Ginsberg uncreative
because they were raw?
> nuances affecting the writer. But at the same time, the depth
> of knowledge may, in fact, be less. In personal narrative,
> topics usually are explored more in depth, with the reasoning
> and deaper feelings exposed while in a daily journal, the
> relationship between writer and reader is much more shallow.
I think you're grasping at straws here. It can just as easily be
argued that the blog form allows more intimate access to a writer's
thoughts and feelings, and the intermittent nature allows the
interactive development of reasoning much as in a conversation.
> This can easily be related to the KayCee fiasco. A complex
> person is hard to fabricate, and keep going. However, the
> mundane trials and events, as well as the kind of on-the-phone
> banter that happens without the small clues face-to-face
> conversations give makes an easier breeding ground for someone
> like KC.
Truisms, such as noting that people you haven't met face-to-face
can't possibly be proven real, are something we have hopefully
discarded during this process.
436 From: "matt"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Re: Italian News Coverage captcrackpipe@...
Send Email
Hey, this one wasn't bad either, but I thought Living Colors went on
for less than a year.
«LIVING COLORS» - Ogni giorno, da quasi due anni,
Also looks like this group might be getting a couple Italian members.
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> Didn't know if you guys had seen this one:
>
>
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/05_Maggio/24/truffa.shtml
>
> Italian newspaper, Corriere della Sera
>
> Saundra
437 From: "Lia Bulaong"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:01pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff me@...
Just a few little notes in response to rich's, um, long note:
> As far as I was concerned, 'weblogs' mostly use a type of software
> that makes it easy to update their site (such as Blogger), and was a
> quick and dirty.
This is a rehash of the tired old typewriters-are-better-than-
computers-because-it-takes-more-time-to-write-with-them-and-
therefore-more-thought argument. Okay? Okay. Let's move on.
> The less-used type of site today used to be the personal narrative
> (old Lance Arthur, Alexis Massie, etc) that was replaced in many ways
> by the proliferation of weblogs - mainly because weblogs have a lower
> barrier to entry than a standard web page does, and the penchant for
> incestual linking among groups of webloggers creates the ability to
> garner an instant audience, and thus gratification in keeping the log
> going.
Weblogs have a lower barrier to entry than a dumb old geoshitties
page? Have you SEEN those things? I mean, really, when
homepages are bad, they're just plain BAD, whether they're a
weblog or journal, or just a bunch of pages of someone's favorite
quotes and links full of animated gifs slapped together with a
crappy online editor.
Plenty of people keep weblogs without anyone besides their
mothers or close friends visiting them. Come on, people have been
signing guestbooks with the most flowery of compliments for as
long as guestbooks have been around in the hopes that the owner
will take notice and link back to them or visit their page.
And considering the large amount of webloggers that have gone
on vacation recently because they need a break, many of them
among the most popular, public gratification is obviously less
important than personal satisfaction, or they'd never quit.
> While I would never say all weblogs lack a type of artistic quality to
> the writing, and a visible effort in crafting language, most are
> easily related to personal diaries opened up to the web for mass
> consumption by strangers. Now, I'm not denegrating weblogs thorugh
> this definition, as they obviously fill a void for their readers, or
> else they wouldn't be so popular.
And, of course, we all know mass consumption is a bad thing
because the masses are STUPID! Ah. I see this is going to go the
low-brow vs high-brow route.
> The point is, though, that this kind of site naturally seems to have
> social implications. The writing is more raw, and sounds more
> 'truthful' or 'real' than more creative writing. This, then, gives a
> fast and close connection to the writer as the reader is immersed in
> the minute-by-minute life of the writer. Little effort is required by
> the reader to find the points or nuances affecting the writer. But at
> the same time, the depth of knowledge may, in fact, be less. In
> personal narrative, topics usually are explored more in depth, with
> the reasoning and deaper feelings exposed while in a daily journal,
> the relationship between writer and reader is much more shallow.
This is either the sister or cousin of Ben Brown's (in)famous 3000+
words manifesto, I can't decide which. Either way, it's the relative
no-one invites to family events like baptisms or birthday parties
because it's so darn tootin' snooty. Let me go out on a limb here
and guess that you also think that comic books are just for kids.
Could we please go beyond these journals-are-better-than-their-
lowly-cousins-weblogs discussions already? I mean, really, the
holier-than-thou tone that always but always starts things isn't
really meant to engage in dialogue, but to pontificate.
In the end, none of this ideological nattering (mine included) really
matters anyway: people will keep journals if they like keeping
journals, and people will keep weblogs if they like keeping
weblogs. People will visit one type or the other or both. Neither is
inherently intellectually superior or attractive or easy to do. Both
work, when done properly. I fail to see the need for a pissing
contest.
> This can easily be related to the KayCee fiasco. A complex person is
> hard to fabricate, and keep going. However, the mundane trials and
> events, as well as the kind of on-the-phone banter that happens
> without the small clues face-to-face conversations give makes an
> easier breeding ground for someone like KC.
And your point was what exactly?
Lia
http://cheesedip.com (yes, I have a weblog, and no, I wouldn't die
if nobody visited because I do it for ME)
438 From: tim733ID@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:03pm
Subject: Re: my feelings tim733ID@...
Send Email
> The member velocityiseverything@y... has been banned for this
> uncalled-for personal attack.
I've seen a couple places where less sensitive voices are still being
shut down.
Wasn't it always about his feelings? The suffering of what was said
to be a beautiful spirit was packaged and promoted, made a fetish
object for the public display of love and caring. People made uneasy
by the emoting for an audience were shouted down.
And that is still how some involvement is explained: "care too
much", "pure love", "full of love", "won't stop caring". This is how
people explain themselves. Isn't there an arrogance in this self-
image? "I am unlike other people," it says. "I FEEL!"
Halcyon was said to love everyone in the world. Even if this is his
true spirit, it must take an awful lot of work to maintain. A person
of such reputation is going to need "causes" like this one as other
people need oxygen. This one would never have been so malleable to
that need if it wasn't so hollow at its centre.
And it's still about his feelings. Oh the horror, he had his nipple
pierced. Be sure to tune into TheRealHouse™ to wallow in his
feelings.
439 From: "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff rich@...
Send Email
I doubt weblogs on a whole could be related to Ginsberg or Kerouac in
any stretch of the imagination. I see that kind of argument often, yet
I haven't seen anything that remotely reminds me of Howl or On the Road
in creative effort from a weblog. Except maybe Lancelog, of course.
I wasn't 'trashing' weblogs - I don't wish to incite the normal response
that generates. I was however, tyring to distinguish weblogs from other
kinds of personal sites. Indeed, many sites today have a weblog, and
then a completely seperate journal section which has a distinctly
different tone and depth to it.
As for the truisms at the end, I was not refering to face to face
communication being the way to 'out' imposters, but relating how a truly
complex person is difficult to fake online (surface kind of weblogs v.s.
more in-depth exposure of thought processes, etc), much like a charade
is easier to do over the phone than in person because you get a better
picture of the person. And much like it's easier to nit-pick than it is
to coalesce a substantial argument.
Oh, and thanks for the number calculations. I didn't really feel like
going through all the messages and counting everything up myself. I
could have sworn there were more than 5 self-referrals, but I don't feel
like putting in that kind of effort for something so trivial. I'll take
you at your word.
-r
dhartung@... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"
> wrote:
> > Other stuff, first; I find it kind of funny that over 50% of
> > the posts here are self-referrals to drive traffic to the
> > poster's site to read what they have wrote.
>
> I count approximately 5, out of 430-odd messages. That's barely 1%, a
> little short of your estimate of 50%.
>
> > Also, there seem to be a lot of people form small towns in
> > Kansas here.
>
> One has come out, maybe two. You're not helping your credibility here.
>
> regurgitate old points about blogs
>
> > The point is, though, that this kind of site naturally seems to
> > have social implications. The writing is more raw, and sounds
> > more 'truthful' or 'real' than more creative writing.
>
> That's an unnecessary slap. Were Kerouac and Ginsberg uncreative
> because they were raw?
>
> > nuances affecting the writer. But at the same time, the depth
> > of knowledge may, in fact, be less. In personal narrative,
> > topics usually are explored more in depth, with the reasoning
> > and deaper feelings exposed while in a daily journal, the
> > relationship between writer and reader is much more shallow.
>
> I think you're grasping at straws here. It can just as easily be
> argued that the blog form allows more intimate access to a writer's
> thoughts and feelings, and the intermittent nature allows the
> interactive development of reasoning much as in a conversation.
>
> > This can easily be related to the KayCee fiasco. A complex
> > person is hard to fabricate, and keep going. However, the
> > mundane trials and events, as well as the kind of on-the-phone
> > banter that happens without the small clues face-to-face
> > conversations give makes an easier breeding ground for someone
> > like KC.
>
> Truisms, such as noting that people you haven't met face-to-face
> can't possibly be proven real, are something we have hopefully
> discarded during this process.
--
-r^2, 'magically delicious'
http://www.inferiority.com
rich@...
440 From: Matthew Haughey
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:17pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff matt@...
Send Email
rich robinson wrote (a couple people replied with some stuff I'm too lazy
to quote):
>The weblog discussion peaked my interest a bit in how people were defining
>them, and so forth.
Whoa. People, people, I love bashing the weblog basher as much as the next
guy, but aren't we piling on Rich a little here?
I agree with the thrust of Rich's argument, weblogs are, by definition,
very personal, so getting readers to buy into what they are reading as "the
truth" is much easier than say, a standard home page, journal or diary.
No one would ever think a weblog was fictional until now. They were a
breath of fresh air for many readers, because they were so personal and
intimate (but like Rich said, they didn't have to get mired in details, so
a rouse was possible and also fairly easy). Pre-living colours, they were a
window into someone's daily life and there wasn't a reason to question it,
why would someone fake the mundane? What purpose would it serve to write "I
hate my job, today I ate half a bagel and I was stuffed. LOL." if none of
it were true?
I never got into reading journals or diaries until 1997 or so, and I
remember hearing very early on about the bigger fictional projects, so I've
always taken journals with a grain of salt. Looks like I could be doing
that with weblogs in the future, not that that's a bad thing entirely (but
I'm sure fictional weblogs will continue to be quite rare, since it seems a
pointless endeavor to maintain fake daily details).
Matt
441 From: jgrimm@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:17pm
Subject: Re: No villians here jgrimm@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Nikki" wrote:
>
> ... I don't know if I can put into words
> how it feels....not only did one person that you cared about and
knew
> for years die after fighting a long and hard fight with cancer, but
> then to find out that all of it was a lie. It was all made up.
How
> were we to know it was fiction? Was the gifts we received fake?
> Were the phone calls fake?
Maybe. But the warmth and love so many people felt for Kaycee -- I
don't think that was at all fake. True, these emotions were based
on -- someone else's -- lie, but a lot of people did a lot of very
good things with wonderful intentions.
This shouldn't be the kind of thing that could ever be taken away
from them. That's one of the things I dislike about the "Debbie was
evil and everyone else was a dumb, deluded sap" (I know, I know,
gross caricature) story: it makes all of the people who really pulled
together for Kaycee sound like passive victims, and they deserve
better than that.
James
442 From: "Jon Sullivan"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? jon@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Tara" wrote:
>
> You can't isolate this event
> and just tell people to "get over it".
I guess I should clarify. I don't suggest that people "just get over
it." I sympathize with the people who continue to grieve and struggle
with confusion. I personally find the "just get over it" attitude to
be a little offensive. I cried off and on for a couple days when
"Kaycee" died.
I just think adding some humor to the mix is appropriate at this
point. But I'm certainly not going to keep poking people until the
start giggling.
Jon Sullivan
443 From: "Glenn Dixon"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:47pm
Subject: Some thoughts glenn@...
Send Email
I'm new to the Kaycee controversy but thought I would share some
observations on people and the Internet.
I was an early member of the old Firefly community, one of the first
web-based chat rooms. Two things I learned there: 1) The anonymity
and popularity of the Internet attracts hoaxsters, charlatans and
people who 'need' attention; 2) Good, kind-hearted, trusting people
are easily duped by them
I saw this on several occasions where someone would log in under two
different aliases. One 'person' (Person A) would begin talking about
how depressed they were. Most people in the room would ignore them,
but a few would 'bite' and attempt to console them. Then Person A
would talk of suicide. Then some others would begin asking incisive,
direct questions, doubters that we were. At this point Person B
would jump in and castigate the doubters for their uncaring, cynical
attitudes. Shortly both Persons A and B would disappear, with Person
B showing up again later to inform the chat room 'not to worry'
because they had talked with Person A in private and had managed to
talk them out of suicide. Person B was now a bonafide hero.
As long as there are new people coming online there will be Person
B's and Debbies there to attempt to garner attention, affection and
whatever else they are lacking. Shake your head, learn, move on.
Reserve your sympathies and caring for verifiable, real tragedies and
people. Heaven knows there are plenty of them out there.
Glenn
glenn@...
444 From: "Jon Sullivan"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:49pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff jon@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Matthew Haughey wrote:
> but aren't we piling on Rich a little here?
A half dozen post isn't piling on. And the idea that weblogs are fluffy vanity pieces for entertaining people with weak minds is just so tired.
No one said it was literature. No one said it was important. Looked at in a demographic sense, weblogs are a tiny little thing. Sure I suppose there's tons of social commentary that could be rung from this. But it's just a weblog.
At the end of the day it's just a diary.
Jon Sullivan
http://www.jonsullivan.com/
445 From: "Ray Mikell"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:12pm
Subject: Re: my feelings raysmj@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., tim733ID@n... wrote:
> > The member velocityiseverything@y... has been banned for this
> > uncalled-for personal attack.
>
> I've seen a couple places where less sensitive voices are still
being
> shut down.
>
> Wasn't it always about his feelings? The suffering of what was said
> to be a beautiful spirit was packaged and promoted, made a fetish
> object for the public display of love and caring. People made
uneasy
> by the emoting for an audience were shouted down.
Thank you. I was bothered by the velocity post, and thought after
seeing it that the Kaycee forum was turning into a particularly gross
version of the Jerry Springer show. Velocity was being reactionary,
and deserved to get kicked off. But Halcyon's post had already been
revolting enough. He may be popular, but so what?
Granted, the world needs extreme extroverts who have a strong sense
of empathy, who need to connect with others. The world needs people
with causes too. Also, being very much a feeler type myself (just not
extroverted), the idea that "feelings" are to be sneered at, and
that "rational" thought means shutting your emotions off completely
comes off to me as deeply offensive and dangerous.
That said, being empathetic means putting yourself in a larger
context, remembering that you are just one tiny human being among
billions. It means thinking out your actions out just a bit more. Is
that all so different from, say, not driving drunk with friends in
the car or asking your frinds to fasten their safety belts? If you
care, you'll stop to think and protect. Moreover, loving means
remembering that while you're shouting about how much you love and
care, you may be putting pressure on others who are caring
themselves, but can't and don't want to make a public display of it.
Loving means remembering that others might not care about the same
things or people that you do. Loving means accepting accountability.
Otherwise, you're just a self-indulgent self-promoter.
Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he can't
promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds of
others will follow him, that given his personality his words will
have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
thinking -- and that's not really loving.
446 From:
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...
Send Email
Geez you guys.
You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah. Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats the important thing. Now let it go.
- J.R. Salzman
----- Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he can't
promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds of
others will follow him, that given his personality his words will
have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
thinking -- and that's not really loving.
447 From: "Ray Mikell"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:23pm
Subject: Re: my feelings raysmj@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:
> Geez you guys.
>
> You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make
mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.
Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats
the important thing. Now let it go.
>
>
Ahem. My point was that nothing -- absolutely nada -- in Halcyon's
post showed me that he'd learned anything at all.
448 From: yahoo@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:26pm
Subject: Re: my feelings yahoo@...
Send Email
Yeah, but he's STILL making the mistake. Continuing to promote his
radio love-ins, posting his URLs everywhere he can find to post them.
Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.
Jeff Clark
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:
> Geez you guys.
>
> You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make
mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.
Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats
the important thing. Now let it go.
>
>
> - J.R. Salzman
>
>
>
>
> ----- Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he
can't
> promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds of
> others will follow him, that given his personality his words will
> have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
> thinking -- and that's not really loving.
449 From:
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...
Send Email
Perhaps if you listened to his radio show from last night, you would know that he has learned from it. The link to listen to it is on my site.
J.R. Salzman
www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:
> Geez you guys.
>
> You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make
mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.
Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats
the important thing. Now let it go.
>
>
Ahem. My point was that nothing -- absolutely nada -- in Halcyon's
post showed me that he'd learned anything at all.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
450 From:
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:34pm
Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...
Send Email
Hey! I have a great idea! If you don't like what he has to say, don't read it!! Wow! What a concept!!
I'm through with this discussion.
- J.R. Salzman
Yeah, but he's STILL making the mistake. Continuing to promote his
radio love-ins, posting his URLs everywhere he can find to post them.
Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.
Jeff Clark
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:
> Geez you guys.
>
> You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make
mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.
Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats
the important thing. Now let it go.
>
>
> - J.R. Salzman
>
>
>
>
> ----- Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he
can't
> promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds of
> others will follow him, that given his personality his words will
> have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
> thinking -- and that's not really loving.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
451 From: "Jim"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Re: my feelings jim@...
Send Email
> Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
> thinking -- and that's not really loving.
You're so right there.
Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it was
easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. There were few
exceptions.
You want to love? Start at home. Spend time with mom, dad, kids. Go
lend the neighbor a hand with the yard work. Give grandma a call.
Volunteer at your community hospital or nursing home.
I'm not saying that loving 'Kaycee' was worthless or a waste of time.
I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap and
easy.
452 From: "Ray Mikell"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Re: my feelings raysmj@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:
> Perhaps if you listened to his radio show from last night, you
would know that he has learned from it. The link to listen to it is
on my site.
>
> J.R. Salzman
> www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp
>
Actually, J.R., you might have told me that in the earlier message,
instead of sounding like you were just shouting down another person
who dared question the good and great Halcyon again (and he may be
great in person, for all I know). I didn't have time to listen to
anyone's radio show last night, and all I had to go on was the
message posted here, which wasn't at all reassuring. The thing's
advertised as a feel-the-love thing, right? To me, that's part of the
problem, as noted in my earlier message.
453 From: rkailey@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:34pm
Subject: Re: Does Debbie realize rkailey@...
Send Email
Being remarkably cynical about such things, it is my belief that
Debbie will write a tell-all book in an effort to "find peace". And
if it makes a buck (or several thousand) who can complain? It is my
personal hope that she is tried and convicted of this hoax as a
crime ... Not because I am vindictive or hurt. "Kaycee Nicole" was
completely unknown to me slightly over a week ago. I want Debbie
convicted because that will legally prohibit her from profitting from
that crime. No sappy "I just needed to feel loved" book. No "I'm so
sorry for those I've wronged" expose. And no "I'll donate .001% of
the proceeds to a good cause". If anybody should write this story
and profit from what has transpired, it should be one (or a group) of
the people on this list and Mefi. So if she spouts off and helps a
case against her, then more power to her.
Wulfgar!
-- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:
> I wonder if Debbie realizes that what she is saying to the press
can
> be used against her in the court of law should charges be filed.
Also
> I noticed that Randall is taking time off as well....I think that
it
> is best---I feel so bad that he has been caught up in the center of
> this storm especially considering that he lost his own loved ones
to
> cancer prior to meeting Debbie (KC). I pray that like all of us
> deeply affected that he will one day find the answers but true
peace
> in this matter.
454 From: jenn@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:43pm
Subject: Re: No villians here jenn@...
Send Email
Someone stated that Debbie is not evil, but sick. That is absolutely
the case. She is a classic Munchausen by Internet case.
I've read a few comments, speculating on Debbie's personality,
motive, etc. I'm certain that her main intent was not to scam people
out of money, gifts, etc. -- she mainly was after attention.
In order for you to have a better understanding of who Debbie is,
here are some articles on Munchausen. Please understand, I am very
sorry for her victims, and do *not* condone or brush off Debbie's
behavior. It is a very serious matter, and she hurt people a great
deal. I hope her or a neighbor sees this and gets her help.
*****************************************************************
http://www.shpm.com/articles/chronic/faking.html
Quote: Here, people willfully fake or produce illness to command
attention, obtain lenience, act out anger, or control others....I
coined the terms "virtual factitious disorder" (Feldman, Bibby, &
Crites, 1998) and "Munchausen by Internet" (Feldman, 2000) to refer
to people who simplify this "real-life" process by carrying out their
deceptions online. Instead of seeking care at numerous hospitals,
they gain new audiences merely by clicking from one support group to
another. Under the guise of illness, they can also join multiple
groups simultaneously. USING DIFFERENT NAMES AND ACCOUNTS [emphasis
added], they can even sign on to one group as a STRICKEN PATIENT, HIS
FRANTIC MOTHER, and his distraught son all to make the ruse utterly
convincing....
WHEN MUNCHAUSEN BY INTERNET SEEMS LIKELY, it is best to have a small
number of established members gently, empathically, and privately
question the author of the dubious posts.
*****************************************************************
http://healtheoffice.com/munchausen_by_internet.htm
What's interesting in this URL is the description of a community's
reaction to discovering the truth: "While some people are unmoved or
even amused by the audacity of a deception, others are sincerely
hurt. Common reactions include sending angry or sad e-mails to the
deceiver, leaving the group in disgust, splitting the group into
camps of believers and disbelievers, and fearing that the deceiver
will misuse personal information that was volunteered in the past."
*****************************************************************
http://www.munchausen.com
"People with factitious disorders feign, exaggerate, or actually self-
induce illnesses. Their aim? To assume the status of "patient," and
thereby to win attention, nurturance, and lenience that they feel
unable to obtain in any other way. Unlike individuals who "malinger,"
people with factitious disorders are not primarily seeking external
gains such as disability payments or narcotic drugs--though they may
receive them nonetheless."
*****************************************************************
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4097320,00.html
"If interest in his case wanes among the other participants, he
simply invents new crises to rekindle it. "
*****************************************************************
http://www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artPretender.html
A NY Times story about a recovered Munchausen patient.
455 From: "Louise Butler"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: my feelings lou@...
Send Email
> Ahem. My point was that nothing -- absolutely nada -- in Halcyon's
> post showed me that he'd learned anything at all.
But isn't that his prerogative? If you're worried that he'll promote the
hell out of the next fraud that comes along, then just don't buy into the
promotions ..
456 From: saundra@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:25pm
Subject: Satire on Something Awful.Com saundra@...
Send Email
I found it amusing, and I thought some of you might too. If you're
still hurting over the hoax- it's not particularly vicious, but you
might not find it funny, so don't visit, okay?
http://www.somethingawful.com/
Saundra
457 From: jgrimm@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:29pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff jgrimm@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Matthew Haughey wrote:
> No one would ever think a weblog was fictional until now. They were
> a breath of fresh air for many readers, because they were so
> personal and intimate (but like Rich said, they didn't have to
> get mired in details, so a rouse was possible and also fairly
> easy). Pre-living colours, they were a window into someone's
> daily life and there wasn't a reason to question it, why would
> someone fake the mundane? What purpose would it serve to write
> "I hate my job, today I ate half a bagel and I was stuffed.
> LOL." if none of it were true?
Perhaps for the same reason someone would make a sculpture from found
objects, or write a poem in the form of a classified ad, or write a
radio play about the thoughts of a bridge-painter. The "mundane" is
just as rich in emotional content and artistic potential as anything
more contrived -- perhaps it's even more resonant because it's so
_true_. This is the stuff we live every day, after all.
For four months this fall and winter, I wrote a story in the form of
a weblog: the real-time daily ranting of a fellow in a bit of a rut,
with nothing much more interesting than Playstation in his life. he
answered email and posted to a message board, and there was even a
crossover into "real" life with a voice mailbox. I was also very
careful to make sure that anyone who interacted with him on anything
substantive knew he was fictonal, but that took active work on my
part. People would stumble across the site, not read the "about"
page, and write him commiserating email. Before he wrote back, I'd
break character to send them a "hey, you know this guy isn't real,
right?" email. Usually, they didn't.
Ben's life, I think, was interesting without needing to resort to
space aliens or high drama, which was precisely my point in writing
Lotvs-Eaters.
See also
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002GG1
for a year-ago discussion on fictional weblog narrators.
James
458 From: Oliver Willis
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: my feelings owillis@...
Send Email
I think that's why I never got into the whole Kaycee
"thing". I can get emotionally involved - to a point -
with online folks, but until I actually have met them
in real life it's pretty useless for me to actually
"feel" for them. But that's just me.
--- Jim wrote:
> > Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
> > thinking -- and that's not really loving.
>
> You're so right there.
>
> Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing
> because it was
> easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached
> love. There were few
> exceptions.
>
> You want to love? Start at home. Spend time with
> mom, dad, kids. Go
> lend the neighbor a hand with the yard work. Give
> grandma a call.
>
> Volunteer at your community hospital or nursing
> home.
>
> I'm not saying that loving 'Kaycee' was worthless or
> a waste of time.
> I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was
> kinda cheap and
> easy.
>
>
=====
Oliver Willis
www.oliverwillis.com
owillis@...
______________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
459 From: jgrimm@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:38pm
Subject: Re: No villians here jgrimm@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:
> I could believe that she didn't fully understand what was going
> on, the power of the internet as a medium, and so forth, except for
> the P.O.Box, the girl on the phone, the photographs, the gifts...
There's plenty of precedent for people going to horrifying lengths to
cover up initially-tiny lies. A recent book, _The Adversary_, tells
the true story of a man whose actions make Debbie's look like nothing.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805065830/o/qid=990729126/sr=8
-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/002-7328489-3773633
Amazon's description of the book begins: "Too mortified to admit that
he has missed a crucial medical school exam, Jean-Claude Romand
decides instead to lie. It's the pitiful act of a desperate man that
turns into a full-time charade, and as the lies pile up Romand
manages to convince everyone--his wife, best friend, parents, in-
laws, and mistress--that he is a doctor with the World Health
Organization. When it all starts to unravel some 18 years later,
Romand tries to cover up his deception by killing his family and
making a feeble attempt at killing himself."
Evil, sick, weak, or something else entirely? No one can really
tell, but people very frequently dig themselves into incredibly deep
holes and then choose awful ways out of them.
James
460 From: sdenbes1@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:10pm
Subject: Re: my feelings sdenbes1@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Oliver Willis wrote:
> I think that's why I never got into the whole Kaycee
> "thing". I can get emotionally involved - to a point -
> with online folks, but until I actually have met them
> in real life it's pretty useless for me to actually
> "feel" for them. But that's just me.
For reasons I've never quite understood, there seems to be a belief
in some quarters that the act of caring about something will result
in tangible effects. I guess if a thousand people sit alone in their
homes and all care in the same way, some mystical psychic force will
manifest and make something happen.
I guess it's a new-agey thing. As a mechanist, I don't believe such
things. Thoughts don't accomplish anything directly (except to
consume glucose); it's ACTIONS that count.
I wonder if it might be a vestigial form of prayer in people who
think they've become agnostic or atheist.
Anyway, I believe that part of what happened here was a whole bunch
of people watching what was going on (almost a living soap opera,
though even more like that than they knew) hoping it would come out
OK, and perhaps on some level expecting that their own caring was
going to affect the result. And indeed, it seemed as if it was going
to; she seemed to have been cured of leukemia. So when the
aneurysm "killed" her, it was a tremendous shock. All their non-
prayers hadn't worked.
Which made the shock of finding out that the game had been rigged
doubly bad.
461 From: "halcyon"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:37pm
Subject: Re: my feelings halcyon@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
> Yeah, but he's STILL making the mistake. Continuing to promote his
> radio love-ins, posting his URLs everywhere he can find to post
them.
> Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.
>
> Jeff Clark
*sigh*
Yeah, I'm making BANK off this!
Woo-hoo!! Bring me more of that sympathy traffic!
In addition to disorientation, I am dealing with guilt feelings
because I got some people into this mess (in terms of linking to
Kaycee and encouraging peopel to read her words). Now I'm trying to
help people work through it as I am working through it. This is far
more than a detective game for me. I have a head full of memories
that never happened. My first choice? If I would have spent the
last 2 years corresponding with a real person who is still alive and
continues to inspire.
But that ain't the case.
One lesson you can learn form this is "trust less."
Just as many people deal with a broken heart by learning, "guard your
heart."
I completely understand that.
But don't think that it's the only lesson to be learned here.
-Halcyon
>
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:
> > Geez you guys.
> >
> > You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make
> mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.
> Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats
> the important thing. Now let it go.
> >
> >
> > - J.R. Salzman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he
> can't
> > promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds
of
> > others will follow him, that given his personality his words will
> > have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
> > thinking -- and that's not really loving.
462 From: "halcyon"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:40pm
Subject: Re: my feelings halcyon@...
Send Email
"loving without thinking" isn't loving!?!
Wow. We love very differently.
-Halcyon
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jim" wrote:
> > Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
> > thinking -- and that's not really loving.
>
> You're so right there.
>
> Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it was
> easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. There were
few
> exceptions.
>
> You want to love? Start at home. Spend time with mom, dad, kids. Go
> lend the neighbor a hand with the yard work. Give grandma a call.
>
> Volunteer at your community hospital or nursing home.
>
> I'm not saying that loving 'Kaycee' was worthless or a waste of
time.
> I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap and
> easy.
463 From: misssassy_pants@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:47pm
Subject: Re: my feelings misssassy_pants@...
Send Email
> I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap
>and easy.
"cheap and easy" implies empty, which it certainly doesn't seem
to have been for halcyon; who cares if it was from a computer
screen? give him a break.
464 From:
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...
Send Email
Need I remind you that it wasn't a computer screen these people were caring about? These people talked to her on the phone all the time. They exchanged gifts. They worked together over the internet. They exchanged pictures. This wasn't one computer screen talking to another. If you want a good idea of what went on between them, listen to Halcyons Feel the Love Show. The archive link is on my site.
www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp
- J.R. Salzman
----- Original Message -----
From: misssassy_pants@yahoo.com
To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 2:47 PM
Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: my feelings
> I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap
>and easy.
"cheap and easy" implies empty, which it certainly doesn't seem
to have been for halcyon; who cares if it was from a computer
screen? give him a break.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
465 From: "elizAbeth"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:00pm
Subject: Re: my feelings amazingjettgrrrl@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
> Yeah, but he's STILL making the mistake. Continuing to promote his
> radio love-ins, posting his URLs everywhere he can find to post
them.
> Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.
>
> Jeff Clark
"Hey, that name's familiar," I thought. I re-ran your name through my
brain. I must admit, I was surprised to see you sporting this
opinion...
Surprised, but not negatively so.
Welcome to the 'dark side', Brother Jeff. Or to what is commonly
misconstrued as the dark side, anyway.
I worry and wonder about those people who proclaim to have no anger
reaction. This, in the course of things, is NOT normal. It makes me
wonder about how human these folks actually are. This may sound
somewhat ignorant and neanderthal to all reading, but the message
of 'absolute love, absolutely' unnerves and frightens me.
I did not know the Kaycee construct as well as some others, so
perhaps that is why my grief mutated to anger more rapidly. And I
continue to be angry, because this unabashed liar's story keeps
changing directions and forms, because she has left so many people
swinging in the wind. And I am not talking about the 'participants'
at this point...I am referring to people like Saundra Mitchell (who
was not misled by Debbie, necessarily, but by the resultant 'big
media' first involvement) and Julie Fullbright (and why the hell is
she not outraged?? you can be successfully angry and graceful at the
same time!) and Debbie's own family. She has effectively torn the
world of her children asunder. I cannot imagine the trauma in that
home as I type this.....
*sigh* I don't proclaim to know any easy answers. Nor do I expect
people to subscribe to my own practices/way of thingking. It is just
a relief to know that I am not in the absolute minority here.
466 From: acridrabbit@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:00pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff acridrabbit@...
> For four months this fall and winter, I wrote a story in the form
of a weblog:
>I was also very careful to make sure that anyone who interacted
with him on anything
> substantive knew he was fictonal, but that took active work on my
> part. People would stumble across the site, not read the "about"
> page, and write him commiserating email.
Are you talking about http://www.vlysses.com/? Because the "about
me" and "start here" pages, where most new visitors would go, say
nothing about fiction. That is stated on the "credits" page, and
people don't usually look there unless they're interested in the
technical details (most credits pages on most personal sites list the
hardware & software used, which a lot of readers don't care about).
I'm only saying this to point out that there are probably plenty of
people who thought it was completely real, true, factual, actual
stuff.
I have no problem with fiction, I just like to know it is fiction
when it is.
467 From: "Jon Sullivan"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:08pm
Subject: Re: my feelings jon@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "halcyon" wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
>>
>> Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.
> One lesson you can learn form this is "trust less."
Unconditional love is very alien for most people. I've met other
people besides Halcyon who live their lives with this philosophy.
Growing up in the sixties I saw it all the time.
But Halcyon is one the rare adherents who can actually walk the walk.
He isn't spouting off about love and then being petty when he's out
of the spot light. And unlike Kaycee, lots of people know, party,
hang out, live, etc. with John.
He's the real deal.
Expecting him to stop preaching his philosophy is just silly. Clearly
some people are going to disagree. Some people are going to think
it's fake. Some people are more comfortable in a world which is cold,
hard, and mean.
sigh This is actually the view I have of the world. I'm more
comfortable as a cynic. There is no way I could go through life
giving unconditional love.
But I'm glad there are people out there who can.
John Sullivan
http://www.jonsullivan.com/
468 From: jgrimm@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:59pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff jgrimm@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., acridrabbit@g... wrote:
> Are you talking about http://www.vlysses.com/? Because the "about
> me" and "start here" pages, where most new visitors would go, say
> nothing about fiction. That is stated on the "credits" page, and
> people don't usually look there unless they're interested in the
> technical details (most credits pages on most personal sites list
the
> hardware & software used, which a lot of readers don't care about).
Yes, that's it. I only sent out announcements that called it
fiction, and I only promoted it as such. More relevantly, it used to
be a little more apparent what was going on. When Organizine went
bye-bye, I had to bail the content, and the design-usability suffered
some as a result.
James
469 From: "Debbie"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:13pm
Subject: very interesting information centrsgrrl@...
Send Email
i just got a letter in the snail mail from the pastor, obviously sent
before the whole julie thing broke.
he called her sunday night and debbie told him that "kaycee"
perpetrated the hoax, that she unwittingly participated in the hoax
by letting "kaycee" use her p.o. box. she said the person DID die on
monday the 14th of cancer. she was really sorry for her involvement.
she was duped into participating by trying to be a good neighbor.
totally lying.
of course, debbie didn't know that she was about to be busted on the
whole julie thing and of course now the pastor knows the truth as it
has been all over the local news and papers.
470 From: "Louise Butler"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:15pm
Subject: Re: very interesting information lou@...
Send Email
THATS an interesting turn of things! God, she couldn't just cut her losses
and be like, "I'm a lyin' fool!"
----- Original Message -----
From: Debbie
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 2:13 PM
Subject: kaycee-nicole very interesting information
> i just got a letter in the snail mail from the pastor, obviously sent
> before the whole julie thing broke.
>
> he called her sunday night and debbie told him that "kaycee"
> perpetrated the hoax, that she unwittingly participated in the hoax
> by letting "kaycee" use her p.o. box. she said the person DID die on
> monday the 14th of cancer. she was really sorry for her involvement.
> she was duped into participating by trying to be a good neighbor.
>
> totally lying.
>
> of course, debbie didn't know that she was about to be busted on the
> whole julie thing and of course now the pastor knows the truth as it
> has been all over the local news and papers.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
471 From: "Jim"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:23pm
Subject: Re: my feelings jim@...
(btw, thank you for allowing me, bumbling idiot that I was, on your
show last night)
I tried to use the "loving without thinking" thread to segue into
a "love" of case, for most of us, was an easy love. A love without
commitment. A love without teeth. A love without works.
Too many of us (hell, me included) spend too much time in front of
our computers interacting with cyber-people. And sometimes, maybe
lots of times, it's at the expense of the meat-people.
And I don't want to denigrate the love that we have shared
through "Kaycee". Certainly you and bwg invested the most ... and
perhaps the most tangible love.
Forgive me if I insulted you and/or your feelings. Not my intent.
Jim
JimFormation.com
> "loving without thinking" isn't loving!?!
>
> Wow. We love very differently.
>
> -Halcyon
>
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jim" wrote:
> > > Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without
> > > thinking -- and that's not really loving.
> >
> > You're so right there.
> >
> > Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it
was
> > easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. There were
> few
> > exceptions.
> >
> > You want to love? Start at home. Spend time with mom, dad, kids.
Go
> > lend the neighbor a hand with the yard work. Give grandma a call.
> >
> > Volunteer at your community hospital or nursing home.
> >
> > I'm not saying that loving 'Kaycee' was worthless or a waste of
> time.
> > I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap and
> > easy.
472 From: dhartung@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:26pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., acridrabbit@g... wrote:
> James wrote:
> > For four months this fall and winter, I wrote a story in the form
> of a weblog:
>
> > I was also very careful to make sure that anyone who interacted
> > with him on anything
> > substantive knew he was fictonal, but that took active work on my
> > part. People would stumble across the site, not read the "about"
> > page, and write him commiserating email.
>
> Are you talking about http://www.vlysses.com/? Because the "about
> me" and "start here" pages, where most new visitors would go, say
> nothing about fiction. That is stated on the "credits" page, and
> people don't usually look there unless they're interested in the
> technical details (most credits pages on most personal sites list
the
> hardware & software used, which a lot of readers don't care about).
>
> I'm only saying this to point out that there are probably plenty of
> people who thought it was completely real, true, factual, actual
> stuff.
>
> I have no problem with fiction, I just like to know it is fiction
> when it is.
Here's the thing. Some people are saying, what was the big deal? It
was just a weblog, just words on a page. If that's all it had been,
there would be much less of this group-angst.
(For examples, see Snoop Doggy Blog,
http://www.neoflux.com/celeblogs/snoopdog/
or Slutblog.
http://www.geocities.com/slutblog
or that satirical Brad Pitt diary that was taken down.)
Instead, it was much more: it was a person who worked with others on
projects, who e-mailed, who talked to them on the phone.
I believe there's a huge difference between putting something
fictional on the web for it to be found, and actually lying to
someone "in person", on the telephone. I think most would say the
same thing. For most webloggers, and here's a key point, the weblog
IS their voice, the equivalent of them talking to friends. I feel
that way writing mine. Some people create an artificial border
between technology that we're all used to, like the phone, and
technology that most of us are still getting used to, like the
internet, but I'm not sure there's that much of a qualitative
difference, when you get down to basics. Nevertheless, there you have
it: you hear someone's voice, you expect them to be at least telling
you who they are, even if it's a white lie like "Let's do lunch."
Maybe it's just because disguising a voice is that much harder.
If I ran a satirical or deliberately fictional blog, which I don't,
but don't consider beyond the pale, I certainly wouldn't go quite so
far as to treat people like toys or funny-looking moving-pixels in
the shape of letters (hey, look! I say X, and they fill up my screen!
it's fun!). They're still people. If someone were to interact with
that fictional blog, I don't see how I could uphold the fiction in
the e-mail persona. (Now we're hitting AOLiza territory, though...)
Even that, and Debbie went farther, with the phone calls, the
gifts ... there are serious ethical lines that were crossed far and
above just writing a fictional persona's story on the web.
473 From: "Jim"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:26pm
Subject: Re: my feelings jim@...
Send Email
No one has been more vocal defending John and bwg than myself.
And read my entire post:
"Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it was
easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. *There were
few exceptions*."
Halcyon and bwg are certainly exceptions.
Jim
JimFormation.com
> > I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap
> >and easy.
>
> "cheap and easy" implies empty, which it certainly doesn't seem
> to have been for halcyon; who cares if it was from a computer
> screen? give him a break.
474 From: "Jim"
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:29pm
Subject: Re: my feelings jim@...
Send Email
See my previous reply ... and attempt to read my entire post.
I said:
Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it was
easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. *There were
few exceptions.*
Thousands, me included (and I talked to "Kaycee/Debbie" via AIM many
times), put our toes in the water.
John "Halcyon" Styn and Randy van der Woning jumped into the pool.
Few of us are in John or Randy's shoes.
Now go call your mom. :)
Jim
JimFormation.com
> Need I remind you that it wasn't a computer screen these people
were caring about? These people talked to her on the phone all the
time. They exchanged gifts. They worked together over the internet.
They exchanged pictures. This wasn't one computer screen talking to
another. If you want a good idea of what went on between them,
listen to Halcyons Feel the Love Show. The archive link is on my
site.
>
> www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp
>
> - J.R. Salzman
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: misssassy_pants@y...
> To: kaycee-nicole@y...
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 2:47 PM
> Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: my feelings
>
>
> > I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap
> >and easy.
>
> "cheap and easy" implies empty, which it certainly doesn't seem
> to have been for halcyon; who cares if it was from a computer
> screen? give him a break.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> www.
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@y...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
475 From: dhartung@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:29pm
Subject: Re: my feelings dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jon Sullivan" wrote:
> Unconditional love is very alien for most people. I've met other
> people besides Halcyon who live their lives with this philosophy.
[snip....]
> I'm more
> comfortable as a cynic. There is no way I could go through life
> giving unconditional love.
>
> But I'm glad there are people out there who can.
Amen to that.
I don't think we all need to conduct our lives with the goal of
avoiding getting hurt. That's probably more hurtful in the long run.
Like the quote on my weblog: Wipe out. Look stupid. Try again.
Life's too damn short to hide in a hole.
In my own experience, I'm finding the hardest thing to do is to
extend my boundaries, to reach out, to take chances. The last thing I
need is more caution. Thoreau was right, in that most of us live
lives of quiet desperation. The real tragedy is that we accept it.
476 From: misssassy_pants@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: my feelings misssassy_pants@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:
> Need I remind you that it wasn't a computer screen these
people were caring about? These people talked to her on the
phone all the time. They exchanged gifts. They worked together
over the internet. They exchanged pictures. This wasn't one
computer screen talking to another. If you want a good idea of
what went on between them, listen to Halcyons Feel the Love
Show. The archive link is on my site.
>
> www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp
>
no, you needn't remind me, but perhaps others who are viciously
attacking halcyon for "falling for" the kaycee thing. i was merely
using an exact phrase "computer screen" from the post i replied
to to make my point. i fully understand that it was more human
and intimate than that; i'm not the one who said "computer
screen."
477 From: jgrimm@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 10:58pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff jgrimm@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:
> If I ran a satirical or deliberately fictional blog, which I don't,
> but don't consider beyond the pale, I certainly wouldn't go quite
> so far as to treat people like toys or funny-looking moving-pixels
> in the shape of letters (hey, look! I say X, and they fill up my
> screen! it's fun!). They're still people.
If all one wanted were that sort of call-and-response action, playing
text adventures and trolling Slashdot would suffice. That the people
on the other end _are_ people might also be a motivation, and not
just in the conceptual-artist sort of way, either. Even better than
calling spirits from the vasty deep is calling forth real people.
People who care about you, who respond to your tears, who believe in
you -- or rather, believe in the falsehood you've created in order to
get them to care.
Which is, in its way, far, far worse than just treating them like
toys, because it's people's genuine responses that're being
misappropriated, not just the funny-looking pixels those responses
create.
James
478 From: dhartung@...
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jgrimm@l... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:
> > If I ran a satirical or deliberately fictional blog, which I
don't,
> > but don't consider beyond the pale, I certainly wouldn't go quite
> > so far as to treat people like toys or funny-looking moving-pixels
> > in the shape of letters (hey, look! I say X, and they fill up my
> > screen! it's fun!). They're still people.
>
> If all one wanted were that sort of call-and-response action,
playing
> text adventures and trolling Slashdot would suffice. That the
people
> on the other end _are_ people might also be a motivation, and not
> just in the conceptual-artist sort of way, either. Even better
than
> calling spirits from the vasty deep is calling forth real people.
> People who care about you, who respond to your tears, who believe
in
> you -- or rather, believe in the falsehood you've created in order
to
> get them to care.
>
> Which is, in its way, far, far worse than just treating them like
> toys, because it's people's genuine responses that're being
> misappropriated, not just the funny-looking pixels those responses
> create.
I believe you and I agree here, it's just a means-vs.-ends thing.
Despite intent (or utter slow-motion-crash lack of intent), the end
result was that people were treated like toys.
I seem to recall a longish speech from Guaré's _Six Degrees of
Separation_ along those lines. In that situation, everyone believed
that "Paul" was Sidney Poitier's son because it filled some need or
hole in their own life, their own self-conception. It was easy for
Paul to perpetuate the fraud because everyone unintentionally helped
it along.
http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxi/4.26.96/arts/six.html
Hmm, this isn't the one on my mind, but it touches on several of the
pertinent issues:
http://www.whysanity.net/monos/sdop.html
(and it seems to be widely quoted around)
I think that Donald Sutherland (in the movie) had the one I'm
thinking of, but it's been a long time.
479 From: jadeodowd@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:45am
Subject: (No subject) jadeodowd@...
Send Email
My younger brother is real. And he has leukemia. And he was a
friend of this fictional girl. He is in the hospital, where he was
when I learned that Kaycee had died. I felt so bad that I had to tell
him that she had died while he was receiving a dose of Taxol.
Then a few days later I find out that she never existed. Not only
do I have to tell him that his friend DIED, but she was never there
to start with? I could see the middle school girl wanting a sister. I
want a sister. And it's normal for kids to make imaginary friends.
But when the mother found the sites, she should have taken this
down and left it at that. Let Kaycee to die then, when not so many
people had met her. But why did she feel that she needed an
imaginary daughter? And that disease.... That was terrible for her
to mock something like that.
Point in close: My 17 year old brother does not know about this
hoax, because he REALLY is in the hospital over this. He is due
home tomorrow. I want all the hate mail that he is fake to stop. I
kind of wish he were faking this, or that he was a fictional
character. That way, he could end the disease at any time, and
there would be no suffering period. But he isn't, and we can't just
end this. It saddens me that people are doubting him now
because of an obviously mentally ill woman, who is probably a
lesbian lusting over that teenage girl. And since her daughter
started it, she is also probably a lesbian.
Jade
480 From: "Jess Cook"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:04am
Subject: RE: (unknown) jess@...
Send Email
Lesbians -- I knew it was all their fault!
Seriously, Jade, while I am extremely sorry to hear about both your
brother's ill health and the pain that this Kaycee hoax has caused you and
your family, I'd ask that everyone try to avoid jumping to unfounded (and
potentially offensive) conclusions. This has been a difficult week for all
(some more than others, obviously), but if anything we need to try not to
turn on each other here and in other (online and real life) forums.
Jess.
pocketgeek.com/pith
-----Original Message-----
From: jadeodowd@... [mailto:jadeodowd@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:46 PM
To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com
Subject: kaycee-nicole (unknown)
My younger brother is real. And he has leukemia. And he was a
friend of this fictional girl. He is in the hospital, where he was
when I learned that Kaycee had died. I felt so bad that I had to tell
him that she had died while he was receiving a dose of Taxol.
Then a few days later I find out that she never existed. Not only
do I have to tell him that his friend DIED, but she was never there
to start with? I could see the middle school girl wanting a sister. I
want a sister. And it's normal for kids to make imaginary friends.
But when the mother found the sites, she should have taken this
down and left it at that. Let Kaycee to die then, when not so many
people had met her. But why did she feel that she needed an
imaginary daughter? And that disease.... That was terrible for her
to mock something like that.
Point in close: My 17 year old brother does not know about this
hoax, because he REALLY is in the hospital over this. He is due
home tomorrow. I want all the hate mail that he is fake to stop. I
kind of wish he were faking this, or that he was a fictional
character. That way, he could end the disease at any time, and
there would be no suffering period. But he isn't, and we can't just
end this. It saddens me that people are doubting him now
because of an obviously mentally ill woman, who is probably a
lesbian lusting over that teenage girl. And since her daughter
started it, she is also probably a lesbian.
Jade
481 From: jadeodowd@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:39am
Subject: (No subject) jadeodowd@...
Send Email
I didn't mean that they were, but that seems like one. Didn't
mean to offend anyone. But just think about this for a minute,
what if you were Julie Fullbright? Wouldn't this sort of thing creep
you out? This is why I never give out pics on line, or anything.
Anyone could turn around and say that they were me. I try not to
post pictures of myself anywhere either. I don't want my idenity
stolen, and I thought of this before Julie's was. You never know
who's on the other end of the connection. I've gone to friends'
houses and signed on their screen names, and people have
thought that I was them. I told these people that I wasn't who they
thought I was. I know I'd hate for someone to be out there
pretending to be me.
482 From: "Reverend Quonsar The Magnificent"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:44am
Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee quonsar@...
Send Email
> The most interesting thing to me is that this small town paper's
> report is a magnitude better in terms of writing and accuracy than
> the MSNBC story.
>
> Adam
Yah, but he's a small town rookie. Give him time. The industry will
soon mold him into yet another fine example of modern journalist.
:-)
483 From: "brooke"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 2:43am
Subject: (No subject) brooke@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:
> I didn't mean that they were offensive, but that seems like one.
a little offensive.. accusing someone like debbie of being a lesbian
because she is so interested in this julie woman????? do you know
any lesbians?? do you know any gay people?? do you know how
ridiculous the ole pedophile thing is?? do you know that the vast
majority of pedophiles are heterosexual men??? and that a lot of
those are married heterosexual men.
i suggest you get some lesbian friends. i suggest you get to know
us. do you know how many of us are teachers? do you know how many
of us are mothers? do you know how ignorant your statement was?? do
you understand that if you said something racist, that you'd be
hearing it from more than just me.. it would have been UNACCEPTABLE..
i can't tell you how upset i am right now. i am more angry about the
ignorance that was shown on this board than i have EVER been over
what debbie did to people i care about. you have gone right to MY
heart, and maybe others too.. right to the part that has to
constantly be on the defense.. the part thats a little sensitive
because of the current homophobic state of affairs in this country.
i hope you learn something from what i've said. i hope you learn how
much words like what you wrote hurt. they hurt probably more than
you'll ever imagine. more hurt than debbie could ever inflict on me.
-brooke.. the radical lesbian feminist from oregon.
484 From: "Reverend Quonsar The Magnificent"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:00am
Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story quonsar@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Tara" wrote:
> anyone feel like making a list and protesting?
> ; )
> Tara
Heh. Wanna buy a windmill? Great for tilting at. :-)
486 From: jadeodowd@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:30am
Subject: (No subject) jadeodowd@...
Send Email
Since when did this come from picking me apart? Guess certain
people think it's okay to steal an identity. And I know pleanty of
gays.... Let's see, I was raised by a drag queen for the first 5
years of my life, so I guess that counts huh? I was making a
statement that it LOOKED like they were over-obsessed with that
girl, and I came to that conclusion from a statement that Julie's
mom made or was at least put on a site.
Can we stick to the subject here? Or should I get my arch enemy
to start a "We Hate Jade O'Dowd" club or group on here?
Jade
487 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:34am
Subject: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? bonni@...
Send Email
I got an email from Rick Hattersley, the writer with the Peabody
Gazette. He's looking for people who actually sent things
to "Kaycee". I pointed him in the direction of an artist I know who
not only donated a piece of artwork but also lowered the prices on
all variations of that work in memory of Kaycee, because I know about
that firsthand.
I advised him to ask here, actually. I'm not comforatable giving out
his personal email address (that just seems like a bit of an invasion
of privacy to me), but the address for the overall newspaper is
published and its: gazette@...
I'm sure if you wrote to that with a note that it's intended for Rick
Hattersley it would reach him.
bonni
http://bonni.net/
488 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:39am
Subject: (No subject) dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:
> Can we stick to the subject here? Or should I get my arch enemy
> to start a "We Hate Jade O'Dowd" club or group on here?
Don't be distracted by molotov-cocktail throwers.
489 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:41am
Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:
> I got an email from Rick Hattersley, the writer with the Peabody
> Gazette. He's looking for people who actually sent things
> to "Kaycee".
A good place to start is the poll:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/surveys?id=10048960
It does seem as though there was more talk about gifts than people
willing to own up to actually sending them. But that's common in
fraud cases, too.
490 From: "Lisa"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:46am
Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? lisawhirrett@...
Send Email
Bonni, I received that same email but not sure what to do about it.
Anyone else feeling a general mistrust of reporters with all the
inaccuracies in the press so far? I'd feel better if it were the
police asking. I mean, what's a reporter going to do with that
information?
lisa
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:
> I got an email from Rick Hattersley, the writer with the Peabody
> Gazette. He's looking for people who actually sent things
> to "Kaycee". I pointed him in the direction of an artist I know who
> not only donated a piece of artwork but also lowered the prices on
> all variations of that work in memory of Kaycee, because I know
about
> that firsthand.
>
> I advised him to ask here, actually. I'm not comforatable giving
out
> his personal email address (that just seems like a bit of an
invasion
> of privacy to me), but the address for the overall newspaper is
> published and its: gazette@p...
>
> I'm sure if you wrote to that with a note that it's intended for
Rick
> Hattersley it would reach him.
>
> bonni
> http://bonni.net/
491 From: Matthew Haughey
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:49am
Subject: Re: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? matt@...
Send Email
On 03:41 AM 5/25/2001 +0000, dhartung@... wrote:
>A good place to start is the poll:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/surveys?id=10048960
>
>It does seem as though there was more talk about gifts than people
>willing to own up to actually sending them. But that's common in
>fraud cases, too.
No offense Dan because you didn't program Yahoo's poll system, but it'd be
nice if the poll were anonymous publicly, so people wouldn't have to
advertise their embarrassment.
Matt
492 From: saundra@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:53am
Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? saundra@...
Send Email
I certainly can't tell you guys how to decide, but I can tell you that
Rick Hattersley is the nicest out of all the reporters who contacted
me. He did his best to go over all the information, and when there was
a mistake in the article he was happy to change it as quickly as he
could. All the reporters have been interested in the fraud angle, he
probably wants the information to do a follow-up story, though I can't
say for sure. He's nice, you could probably ask him and then decide.
:)
Saundra
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lisa" wrote:
> Bonni, I received that same email but not sure what to do about it.
> Anyone else feeling a general mistrust of reporters with all the
> inaccuracies in the press so far? I'd feel better if it were the
> police asking. I mean, what's a reporter going to do with that
> information?
>
> lisa
>
493 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:49am
Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? bonni@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"
wrote:
> > I got an email from Rick Hattersley, the writer with the Peabody
> > Gazette. He's looking for people who actually sent things
> > to "Kaycee".
>
> A good place to start is the poll:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/surveys?id=10048960
>
> It does seem as though there was more talk about gifts than people
> willing to own up to actually sending them. But that's common in
> fraud cases, too.
I forwarded that information to Rick to investigate as he wishes.
Thanks.
bonni
http://bonni.net/
494 From: jadeodowd@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:55am
Subject: What About Cards, Letters, etc Mailed From This Kaycee Person? jadeodowd@...
I'd like to say that this has effected me more than I believe that it
will my brother-- I was the one that introduced him to that person
Debbie/Kaycee/Kelli/whoever. Think that makes me feel smart in
that category? Usually, when I'm not thinking clearly because
something like this makes me so mad. -I actually cried over a
fictional character?- I say retarded things. I don't hate anyone,
but I'd like to tell Debbie that her plan was sick, and I know that a
lot of people agree with me on that. Who here wasn't affected by
it? Anyway, all that was sent to Kaycee from me was email. My
brother got a birthday card from Kaycee. What should we do with
that? Any ideas? Is there a cop that collecting stuff sent by
Kaycee?
495 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:05am
Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Matthew Haughey wrote:
> On 03:41 AM 5/25/2001 +0000, dhartung@s... wrote:
> >A good place to start is the poll:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/surveys?id=10048960
> >
> >It does seem as though there was more talk about gifts than people
> >willing to own up to actually sending them. But that's common in
> >fraud cases, too.
>
> No offense Dan because you didn't program Yahoo's poll system, but
it'd be
> nice if the poll were anonymous publicly, so people wouldn't have
to
> advertise their embarrassment.
I can't remember who I discussed this with now, but s/he and I agreed
that public would be best so it wouldn't be spammable.
It was mainly intended to establish whether any of the gift-giving
that was talked up was real. Since I don't feel this forum is
representative of the people that "knew" her before the brouhaha,
maybe more composed of MeFians and others, I don't feel the poll
would be reliable otherwise.
My thanks to those who did answer.
496 From: kafeiaries@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:11am
Subject: How Many More Frauds Are Out There? kafeiaries@...
Send Email
am i the only one here that wonders about all the other frauds
out there? this isn't the only one, it's just the only one that's
gotten caught recently.
this so called girl, i talked with her in chat a few times, and her
stories didn't always match the ones that were in the diaries.
well, you know what they say.... "the truth is easier to remember
than a lie".
of course, there are real people out there that are really sick. i've
had one person to go so far as to say that everyone on the web
that claims to have leukemia is faking. that isn't true. i really had
kidney failure, but just because i didn't post daily "please feel
sorry for me" blogs doesn't mean that i was faking.
497 From: "brooke"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:22am
Subject: (No subject) brooke@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:
> > Can we stick to the subject here? Or should I get my arch enemy
> > to start a "We Hate Jade O'Dowd" club or group on here?
>
> Don't be distracted by molotov-cocktail throwers.
umm.. yeah, dig-it. i was supposed to sit back and say nothing
about it, eh? oh yeah.. wait.. its still okay to be homophobic in
this country.. not okay to call someone on it. *note to self* don't
forget, homophobic remarks are acceptable.. never say anything.
don't stand up when something is wrong..
not apologetic for the off-topicness of the post.
-brooke.
498 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:28am
Subject: OT: meta dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "brooke" wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:
> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:
> > > Can we stick to the subject here? Or should I get my arch enemy
> > > to start a "We Hate Jade O'Dowd" club or group on here?
> >
> > Don't be distracted by molotov-cocktail throwers.
>
> umm.. yeah, dig-it. i was supposed to sit back and say nothing
> about it, eh? oh yeah.. wait.. its still okay to be homophobic in
> this country.. not okay to call someone on it. *note to self*
don't
> forget, homophobic remarks are acceptable.. never say anything.
> don't stand up when something is wrong..
I'm just saying, as somebody who's been online in one form or another
since 1982 (!), the best defense against a disruptive troll is to
ignore it. I deleted the message, so only the few who get this via e-
mail or check frequently would have seen it.
This person was just trying to get people's goat with an offensive
remark. Obviously, with you, he succeeded.
> not apologetic for the off-topicness of the post.
Then please find some other forum to argue about homophobia. I'm
trying to keep flamewars out of this group for the benefit of
everyone.
499 From: "Curt"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:42am
Subject: Re: What About Cards, Letters, etc Mailed From This Kaycee Person? falceon@...
Send Email
jade, maybe you need to chill out with your comments. The leasbian
and "I say retarded things" comments are just not very cool. At all.
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:
> Thanks dhart.
> I'd like to say that this has effected me more than I believe that
it
> will my brother-- I was the one that introduced him to that person
> Debbie/Kaycee/Kelli/whoever. Think that makes me feel smart in
> that category? Usually, when I'm not thinking clearly because
> something like this makes me so mad. -I actually cried over a
> fictional character?- I say retarded things. I don't hate anyone,
> but I'd like to tell Debbie that her plan was sick, and I know that
a
> lot of people agree with me on that. Who here wasn't affected by
> it? Anyway, all that was sent to Kaycee from me was email. My
> brother got a birthday card from Kaycee. What should we do with
> that? Any ideas? Is there a cop that collecting stuff sent by
> Kaycee?
500 From: kafeiaries@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:03am
Subject: (No subject) kafeiaries@...
Send Email
is the guy from the peabody gazette the only reporter that's
emailing people?
501 From: David Moisan
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:39am
Subject: Putting Kaycee on a pedestal dmoisan@...
Send Email
I'm new to this scandal and have only looked at the MeFi discussions and
some of the weblogs mentioned, but one thing has *really* bothered me about
this affair, even more so than the obvious deception.
So many people, upon learning that Kaycee (the persona) had cancer, seemed
very quick to put her on a pedestal, glorifying her "struggle" and admiring
her "courage".
This isn't a new thing. People did this to Craig Shergold, Christopher
Reeves, Travis Roy and a host of others. Namely, every public persona with
a visible disability is romanticized and glorified. Sometimes, this
resembles a disease-of-the-week TV movie as the people who suffer the "in"
disease (last week, AIDS, this week, breast cancer) are elevated to glory
as publicity insists.
Six years ago, I started a website that intended to be the antithesis of
this philosophy, The Invisible Disabilty Page (URL is in the sig). I have
multiple disabilities, none of them visible, I needed support and no one
else (in 1995) was out there; without going into personal detail, I ran
into the dark side of glorifying "visible" disability--if you don't have a
"visible" disability, you often don't get help.
I run a discussion list associated with the site and when I heard of the
Kaycee scandal, I had two thoughts. The first one: Do I have any Kaycees
on my list? Most of you may be wondering the same.
I'm not a doctor, and deliberately say so in the list rules. Because so
many of the members of my list have problems with acceptance (from ignorant
people who often "means-test" them on the spot in public, "You're not
*really* disabled!"), I don't try to verify people's circumstances (as if!)
It's always possible I have a few members with Munchhausen's but I believe
this to be rare and don't expect more than a few such people in the
lifetime of my list.
(Thanks to whoever posted the Munchhausen's links, they're excellent and I
will add them to my own site.)
No money has ever changed hands on the list that I know of. The stakes
have never yet gotten so high that another Kaycee could happen. (crossed
fingers.) My list is like many other lists, though it is quieter with a
little higher signal-to-noise ratio. Most people know what they're doing
when they find my site.
I think my list will be OK despite this, so long as I run it as well as I
have. But the second thing that disturbs me much more, is the "role model"
that Debbie presented with the Kaycee persona.
In the two years that Kaycee "lived", how many people have been diagnosed
with any form of cancer, or have gotten a disability through illness or
accident. How many were around Kaycees' age or younger?
Imagine being diagnosed with an illness or having a new disability. You
have many emotions going through your head. You're terrified. You're
angry. You're sad. You're resentful. You're trying to deny it and put up
on a brave face. All this and more than I can even put in words.
In comes Kaycee. You think, "I'm not handling it as well as Kaycee. I
should be thankful for life. I should be brave!" Worse yet, your friends
feel the same way. Maybe a few of your acquaintances wonder why you don't
want to let go of "the cancer thing" or the "illness thing".
This is very unfair. But it's very common for people with illnesses or
disabilities to be treated this way. Most people see TV movies about
disabilities and figure you can "overcome" your condition with "happy
thoughts". But Travis Roy, the famous paralyzed BU hockey player, had to
sue his insurance company over home care that he *needed* to stay out of a
nursing home! *That* is reality for most people with illnesses or
disabilities.
Now knowing that Kaycee wasn't real, it's even worse. If you get cancer,
you may be judged by how "good" you are compared with Kaycee. Real life is
*never* that neat. (I know whereof I speak: My late mom suffered and
eventually died of complications from colon cancer.)
I could make a very good case that the Kaycee persona was in deep denial of
her condition (did she ever talk about wills or do-not-resuscitate orders?)
Some people say that Kaycee taught valuable lessons, even if she wasn't
real. I agree. But I find much less comfort in the lessons *I* have
learned from this.
Take care,
Dave
David Moisan, N1KGH ARES/SKYWARN dmoisan@...
Invisible Disability:
http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/invisible_disability.html
ATS-909 FAQ: http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/faqs/sangean/ats909faq.html
502 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:55am
Subject: Re: How Many More Frauds Are Out There? bonni@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., kafeiaries@n... wrote:
> am i the only one here that wonders about all the other frauds
> out there? this isn't the only one, it's just the only one that's
> gotten caught recently.
It happens all the time. I could tell you stories from my eight or so
years on the net about men impersonating women, women impersonating
men, adults impersonating children, outright lies, scams, hoaxes, you
name it. In almost every sitaution, the person or persons who
perpetrated the fraud said "I didn't mean to hurt anyone. I didn't
realize people would take it so seriously." Some added, "I had good
intentions." A few also added rather snidely, "It's only the
internet," as if that makes it okay to lie, manipulate people, and
hurt others.
Many years ago, when I was totally new to the net, I was drawn into
the web of someone who just wanted to manipulate people's emotions
for his own personal gratification. I got burned very badly, but I
learned a lesson from it. The lesson wasn't "don't believe anything
you read", it was "take it all with a grain of salt."
> this so called girl, i talked with her in chat a few times, and her
> stories didn't always match the ones that were in the diaries.
> well, you know what they say.... "the truth is easier to remember
> than a lie".
This is pretty much the key, I think. No one can consistantly
maintain a complex lie perfectly for very long. There were a lot of
little weirdnesses in Kaycee's blog that some people picked up on,
little details that just didn't jibe. This is true of just about
every fraud, liar, and con artist I've ever known (and I've known
many such people in my lifetime, actually). When you press them,
they'll come up with "explanations" that should raise red flags.
Some people think being cynical is a negative trait, but a little
cynicism can go a long way and save a lot of later heartache.
bonni
http://bonni.net/
503 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:08am
Subject: Re: debbie bonni@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Sara" wrote:
> I think someone should email (or, better yet, phone) debbie and ask
her
> to post some sort of explanation in here. That's the least she can
do.
She's lied to everyone about the matter. She lied to her pastor about
the situation, she lied to the very kind gentleman who hosted her and
Kaycee's websites, she's probably lied to the press and the police.
There's no reason to believe she'd tell the truth in this forum.
bonni (cynical? no, more just realistic in this case).
http://bonni.net/
504 From: chris_san@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:35am
Subject: A genuine Gracemont church photo chris_san@...
Send Email
...is now visible in the "Files" section of this group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/files/
It was taken by Lanni, a resident of Julie's hometown, Gracemont,
who's been kind enough to join us in the EFNet chatroom and do some
actual running around on the ground in Gracemont with a camera. No
photoshopping in sight, folks.
505 From: chris_san@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:42am
Subject: Re: A genuine Gracemont church photo chris_san@...
Send Email
Sorry - forgot to add that Lanni's a real trooper for going out to
the church at 1am (CST, Friday morning) to get the photo. If anyone
deserves a MetaFilter junior spy badge, it's her.
506 From: sdenbes1@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:07am
Subject: Greymatter sdenbes1@...
Send Email
The server I ordered came via UPS yesterday afternoon, and this
afternoon I installed Greymatter on it and started messing with it.
I'm quite impressed and I intend to use it.
This is also the package which BWG was using to format Kaycee's site.
Some people have wondered why it was that Debbie used to mail her log
entries to BWG so he could put them online.
I am no longer mystified by that. Greymatter is a very powerful and
versatile package, but it is by no stretch of the imagination
friendly. It's a very unforgiving environment, and if you don't know
what you're doing you'll screw it up royally. I think that BWG didn't
want to give that kind of power to someone who was clearly a computer
neophyte.
(This is not intended as a criticism of Greymatter. I'm very
impressed by it, and I definitely will be using it.)
507 From: Ian Thompson
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:31am
Subject: Iconoclast mention disarray@...
It's factually incorrect to the point of being laughable, but if anyone's
keeping tabs, it's another mention. *Warning*: the design is as bad as
the story; animation and ads everywhere, and worse yet, background music.
--ian thompson
508 From: "Jim"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? jim@...
Send Email
> No offense Dan because you didn't program Yahoo's poll system, but
it'd be
> nice if the poll were anonymous publicly, so people wouldn't have
to
> advertise their embarrassment.
I'm embarrassed to say that I DIDN'T send any gifts.
It's one of those times that being a selfish prick actually worked
out for me. ;)
Jim
509 From: "Jim"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: Re: debbie jim@...
Send Email
> > I think someone should email (or, better yet, phone) debbie and
ask
> her
> > to post some sort of explanation in here. That's the least she
can
> do.
No doubt she's already here. Reading everything we right.
Debbie has somewhat internet savy. And is known to use multiple
aliases.
She accessed the forum at my website as "Hannah" after "Kaycee's"
death. "Hannah" was the only one who posted that she knew and
met "Kaycee". Said she was a schoolmate. Blah, blah, blah.
Randy (the bwg) knew it was Debbie right away because of a tell-tale
misspelling ("talanted" instead of "talented").
My point: She's probably here. Using an alias. And may even be
participating.
Jim
ps - We pulled all the "Kaycee" posts off my forum. And they weren't
archives. Looking back, I wish I'd kept that message.
510 From: "Tara"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: debbie tara@...
Send Email
> ps - We pulled all the "Kaycee" posts off my forum. And they weren't
> archives. Looking back, I wish I'd kept that message.
didn't stay up long enough to be googled?
or in somebody's HD cache?
Tara
Je réponds au mieux de mes connaissances...
Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org
Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net
511 From: "Jim"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:25pm
Subject: Re: Greymatter jim@...
Send Email
> This is also the package (Greymatter) which BWG was using to format
Kaycee's site.
> Some people have wondered why it was that Debbie used to mail her
log
> entries to BWG so he could put them online.
Randy (bwg) didn't start using GreyMatter until very recently.
Everything else was posted using blogger. It was when blogger started
slowing down and/or eating posts that Randy got turned on to
Greymatter.
Debbie/Kaycee would email to Randy so that Randy could edit grammar,
spelling and clarity. Randy is a talented writer.
Randy, btw, is hard a work writing a piece that will get his story
out.
Jim
512 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:39pm
Subject: Re: Photos mail@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:
> But just think about this for a minute, what if you were Julie
> Fullbright? Wouldn't this sort of thing creep you out?
Completely. Several people shared family photos with "Kaycee," and
one of their biggest fears now is that Debbie will use them in
another identity hoax.
Link: http://www.vanderwoning.ca/archives/kc.html
513 From: "Jim"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:06pm
Subject: BWG Speaks jim@...
Send Email
Randy has posted his "opus" and tells his whole story:
http://vanderwoning.com/mess.shtml
Jim
514 From: Al Sessions
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:41pm
Subject: Re: Greymatter al@...
Send Email
sdenbes1@... wrote:
> This is also the package which BWG was using to format Kaycee's site.
> Some people have wondered why it was that Debbie used to mail her log
> entries to BWG so he could put them online.
> I am no longer mystified by that. Greymatter is a very powerful and
> versatile package, but it is by no stretch of the imagination
> friendly. It's a very unforgiving environment, and if you don't know
> what you're doing you'll screw it up royally. I think that BWG didn't
> want to give that kind of power to someone who was clearly a computer
> neophyte.
Greymatter allows for multiple authors.
There is no need for a newbie poster to ever touch the PERL, templates
or configuration. In this sense once someone sets up the site, it is
as idiot proof as blogger.
--
Al Sessions
al@...
http://fatuos.com
515 From: "Nikki"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 2:17pm
Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? blkbbwprincess@...
Send Email
I personally sent Kaycee gifts and received some
516 From: "Nikki"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 2:18pm
Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? blkbbwprincess@...
Send Email
I sent and received gifts from Kaycee
517 From: saundra@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:36pm
Subject: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article saundra@...
Send Email
Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
"Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get this.....he
thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having followed
the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy with
the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie
Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to pull
up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you might
be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he will
write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't see
it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the
janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."
They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:
http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052
5hoax_txt.htm
Saundra
518 From: metrocake@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: Metafilter back up -- BUT.... metrocake@...
Metafilter is back up, BUT is moving extremely slow. On the sidebar
on the front page (if you're using IE and don't have it collapsed) it
says, "Thursday -- Let's keep the Kaycee talk to a minimum, okay?
This is a better place for it." The linked "better place" is here.
Could we try to stick to that? :)
So you all know, Matt is hosting Metafilter off a DSL line:
"oh yeah, let me know if the DSL line is noticeably slower. It should
be, it's only a 128kbps line. I'd suggest everyone limits their front
page to <3 days view as well." There is also expected to be another
outage when he finds a new host. (He posted this in "Metatalk," by
the way. I'm just sharing.)
You can limit your front page view by going here:
http://www.metafilter.com/contribute/customize.cfm
Scroll down to "number of days on front page." The default is seven,
but let's try and conserve that bandwidth, kiddees, so we can all
play in the sandbox. I'm setting mine, as suggested, to three.
After you've reset that default, don't forget to scroll to the bottom
of the page and click on "change your preferences." Now you're done!
Enjoy...
-- Roe
519 From: sdenbes1@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:54pm
Subject: Re: Greymatter sdenbes1@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Al Sessions wrote:
>
> Greymatter allows for multiple authors.
>
> There is no need for a newbie poster to ever touch the PERL, templates
> or configuration. In this sense once someone sets up the site, it is
> as idiot proof as blogger.
Since I've never used Blogger, I wouldn't know about that. But I do know that a computer neophyte is going to have a hard time with Greymatter even just to create log entries when someone else has set up the site format.
520 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
>
> "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> this.....he thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned
> up to having followed the Kaycee web site so I guess he is
> one of those who are unhappy with the ending. He was checking
> to see if there really was a Debbie Swenson. So you might
> check out the Pocono Record.....I had to pull up Pocono Mts
> to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you might be
> smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he
> will write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but
> I didn't see it on their home page where they listed the
> staff...probably the janitor skulking around playing ace
> reporter."
Not THAT hard to find. Ah, poor benighted folks who don't know how to
use search engines ... especially Google, where it's at the very top.
http://www.poconorecord.com/topstory/mainframe.htm
There's no story yet. True enough, no Eric on staff either:
http://www.poconorecord.com/info/inside/contactus.html
Doesn't mean he's not a stringer or freelancer pumping up his
affiliation.
521 From: "Dwivian"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:19pm
Subject: Re: How Many More Frauds Are Out There? dwivian@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:
> This is pretty much the key, I think. No one can consistantly
> maintain a complex lie perfectly for very long. There were a lot of
> little weirdnesses in Kaycee's blog that some people picked up on,
> little details that just didn't jibe. This is true of just about
> every fraud, liar, and con artist I've ever known (and I've known
> many such people in my lifetime, actually). When you press them,
> they'll come up with "explanations" that should raise red flags.
The problem is, people that give out details of the TRUTH have issues
with consitency. One of the tricks to determining if it is a lie is
if the story is not completely consistent, but not overly mangled.
Things that are perfect show too much forethought and management, so
don't accept them as a guarantee of truth, either.
-dwiv
522 From: "Tim Cunningham"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:22pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article timmopussycat@...
Send Email
I'm just a very infrequent visitor to the KC site, not emotionally
involved, but following the story out of sheer fascination.
I hope that this Eric has a bass voice rather than a tenor one. If
the latter I wonder: could it be another alias of Debbie?
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
> >
> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> > this.....he thinks YOU guys are a fraud. (snip)
His name was Eric something, but I didn't see it on their home page
where they listed the staff...probably the janitor skulking around
playing ace reporter."
>
> Not THAT hard to find. Ah, poor benighted folks who don't know how
to
> use search engines ... especially Google, where it's at the very
top.
> http://www.poconorecord.com/topstory/mainframe.htm
>
> There's no story yet. True enough, no Eric on staff either:
> http://www.poconorecord.com/info/inside/contactus.html
>
> Doesn't mean he's not a stringer or freelancer pumping up his
> affiliation.
524 From: saundra@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:24pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article saundra@...
Send Email
> Not THAT hard to find. Ah, poor benighted folks who don't know how
to
> use search engines ... especially Google, where it's at the very
top.
> http://www.poconorecord.com/topstory/mainframe.htm
NOW I know how we can raise money for MetaFilter's new T-1!
The MetaFilter Education Society Presents: The Internet for Reporters
101- including how to use search engines, basic Photoshop functions,
how to access vital statistics online, and much, much more! A glossary
of Internet terms and phrases will be provided for easy reference. All
your press are belong to us! Register early, space is limited.
Saundra
525 From: "Cat"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:36pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article frykitty@...
Send Email
My first good laugh of the day. Thanks, Saundra.
Just remember, you can lead a horticulture...
Cat
http://www.frykitty.com
> NOW I know how we can raise money for MetaFilter's new T-1!
>
> The MetaFilter Education Society Presents: The Internet for
Reporters
> 101- including how to use search engines, basic Photoshop
functions,
> how to access vital statistics online, and much, much more! A
glossary
> of Internet terms and phrases will be provided for easy reference.
All
> your press are belong to us! Register early, space is limited.
>
> Saundra
526 From: commidd@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article commidd@...
Send Email
This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story picked
up on the wire?
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
>
http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052
> 5hoax_txt.htm
>
> Saundra
527 From: saundra@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:56pm
Subject: Minn/St. Paul Coverage saundra@...
Send Email
This just popped up in the Star Tribune- it's at the bottom underneath
the story about Etiquette Hell.
http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?story=84240541&
template=column_weblog_a
Saundra
528 From: saundra@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:01pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article saundra@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., commidd@y... wrote:
> This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story
picked
> up on the wire?
That's a good question. I haven't seen it posted anywhere else, or on
the AP site, but that doesn't mean it's not there either. Anyone have
any inside info?
S.
529 From: yahoo@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:20pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article yahoo@...
Send Email
This would be Eric Brooks
http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/
He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
>
> "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
this.....he
> thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having
followed
> the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy
with
> the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie
> Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to
pull
> up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you
might
> be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he
will
> write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't
see
> it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the
> janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."
>
> They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:
>
>
http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052
> 5hoax_txt.htm
>
> Saundra
530 From: "Lia Bulaong"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:34pm
Subject: OT: blogs on CNN me@...
I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,
talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,
googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a
psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because
"they have strong personalities" or something like that.
Nope, sorry, no Debbie!
Lia
http://cheesedip.com
531 From:
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:39pm
Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN jr@...
Send Email
I believe that was an interview that Evan did quite a while ago.. like a couple of weeks.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lia Bulaong
To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:34 PM
Subject: kaycee-nicole OT: blogs on CNN
Hi everyone,
I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,
talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,
googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a
psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because
"they have strong personalities" or something like that.
Nope, sorry, no Debbie!
Lia
http://cheesedip.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
532 From: "Lia Bulaong"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:43pm
Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN me@...
jr said:
> I believe that was an interview that Evan did quite a while ago.. like
> a couple of weeks.
Yes, dearie, I know. You're not the only person who reads
Evhead.
Lia
http://cheesedip.com
533 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:52pm
Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lia Bulaong" wrote:
> I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,
> talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,
> googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a
> psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because
> "they have strong personalities" or something like that.
Lia, was this CNNdotCOM or just mixed in with general news? I assume
you're watching CNN International.
534 From: metrocake@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:53pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article metrocake@...
Send Email
I take it he's the "ericbrooksdotcom" from Metafilter?
-- roe
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
> This would be Eric Brooks
>
> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/
>
> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.
>
>
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
> >
> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> this.....he
> > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having
> followed
> > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy
> with
> > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie
> > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to
> pull
> > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you
> might
> > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he
> will
> > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't
> see
> > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the
> > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."
> >
> > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:
> >
> >
>
http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052
> > 5hoax_txt.htm
> >
> > Saundra
535 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:56pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., commidd@y... wrote:
> > This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story
> picked
> > up on the wire?
>
> That's a good question. I haven't seen it posted anywhere
> else, or on the AP site, but that doesn't mean it's not
> there either. Anyone have any inside info?
I've searched every wire source out there, again, and nada. Yahoo for
Reuters, wire.ap.org for Associated Press, even ABCNews Raw.
Moreover.com, OTOH, did pull up the Wichita article directly, on
keyword Kaycee, but nothing newer other than the Iconocast article.
It didn't necessarily actually get on the wire, and I don't know but
what there may be local conventions. I do know that local papers scam
stories from each other all the time, sometimes without attribution!
Should pick up again if it goes out on the New York Times News
Service ... oops, have I said too much? ;-)
536 From:
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:10pm
Subject: Re: On the wire? jr@...
Send Email
I dunno.... I think it did make it to the wire. There is an article in the Star Tribune, which is in Minneapolis/St. Paul. Considering that its a metro area of over 2 million people, I wouldn't consider it local news.
> > This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story
> picked
> > up on the wire?
>
> That's a good question. I haven't seen it posted anywhere
> else, or on the AP site, but that doesn't mean it's not
> there either. Anyone have any inside info?
I've searched every wire source out there, again, and nada. Yahoo for
Reuters, wire.ap.org for Associated Press, even ABCNews Raw.
Moreover.com, OTOH, did pull up the Wichita article directly, on
keyword Kaycee, but nothing newer other than the Iconocast article.
It didn't necessarily actually get on the wire, and I don't know but
what there may be local conventions. I do know that local papers scam
stories from each other all the time, sometimes without attribution!
Should pick up again if it goes out on the New York Times News
Service ... oops, have I said too much? ;-)
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
537 From: "Lia Bulaong"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article me@...
roe asked:
> I take it he's the "ericbrooksdotcom" from Metafilter?
I was wondering why Eric Brooks sounded familiar -- my bad.
saundra said:
> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> > this.....he thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up
> > to having followed the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of
> > those who are unhappy with the ending.
Looks like Debbie isn't the only one who got caught!
Eric was snarky to anyone on the Kaycee MeFi threads who dared
doubt that Kaycee was a fake. He also keeps saying that MeFi is
crap -- on MeFi *and* MetaTalk -- but then returns to post anew,
while still saying MeFi is crap and he won't come back.
Lia
http://cheesedip.com
538 From: "Lia Bulaong"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: OT: blogs on CNN me@...
Dan asked:
> Lia, was this CNNdotCOM or just mixed in with general news? I
> assume you're watching CNN International.
Yep, CNN International -- it was mixed in with general news,
although they had a teaser for it a few minutes before it ran (not
mentioning the word "blog" and using journalling instead, which is
going to tick off the diarists, heh). It was narrated by Alison Tom.
I think Meg and Ev got most of the screen time, although I don't think
it was mentioned that Meg co-founded or left Pyra, or that Pyra
was having financial trouble.
Blogger was mentioned a few times, as were Pitas and I think
Diaryland (Andrew of benicetobears is Canadian, right?), although
Blogger was mentioned the most and had its front page shown.
Perhaps I'd better stop being a lazy-ass and install Greymatter this
weekend.
Lia
http://cheesedip.com
539 From: saundra@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:12pm
Subject: Note from "No" in Brazil saundra@...
Send Email
Hi y'all. I got a note from a gentleman who works for "No" in Brazil.
Apparently they're a Salon/Feed type magazine, web only, but sometimes
they sell articles to the print media as well. There may be a
follow-up coming soon, but I don't know the details. I was curious
about what kind of magazine it was, and I thought you all might be
too. Now we know!
Saundra
540 From: rpgman@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:22pm
Subject: bwg's Press Release.... rpgman@...
Send Email
man, I really feel for this guy.....cheer up big fella.
http://vanderwoning.com/mess.shtml
rpgman66
541 From: "Tim Cunningham"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:30pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article timmopussycat@...
Send Email
My apologies to Eric Brooks for doubting his existance. Glad to know
that he is not another alias for Debbie
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
> This would be Eric Brooks
>
> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/
>
> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.
>
>
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
> >
> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> this.....he
> > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having
> followed
> > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy
> with
> > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie
> > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to
> pull
> > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you
> might
> > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he
> will
> > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't
> see
> > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the
> > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."
> >
> > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:
> >
> >
>
http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052
> > 5hoax_txt.htm
> >
> > Saundra
542 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:33pm
Subject: Re: On the wire? dhartung@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:
> I dunno.... I think it did make it to the wire. There is an
article in the Star Tribune, which is in Minneapolis/St. Paul.
Considering that its a metro area of over 2 million people, I
wouldn't consider it local news.
JR, that's Gael's professional weblog that she does for the paper.
She also has a personal weblog at http://www.popculturejunkmail.com/
(I checked, she has NOT covered Kaycee there, it's really off topic
for her culture esoterica).
543 From: "Jess Cook"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:43pm
Subject: RE: On the wire? jess@...
Send Email
The Star Tribune article was written by Gael Fashingbauer Cooper, who is a noted blogger (popculturejunkmail.com) and probable MeFi lurker, which explains why the story turned up in a Minneapolis/St. Paul paper.
Jess
pocketgeek.com/pith
-----Original Message-----
From: jr@logboy.com [mailto:jr@logboy.com]
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:10 AM
To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: kaycee-nicole On the wire?
I dunno.... I think it did make it to the wire. There is an article in the Star Tribune, which is in Minneapolis/St. Paul. Considering that its a metro area of over 2 million people, I wouldn't consider it local news.
544 From: saundra@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:51pm
Subject: Further Dispatches from Peabody saundra@...
Send Email
Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but I got this mail regarding
some of Debbie's details in the blogs from my pal in Peabody.
"I did notice a couple of things tho.....she talked about the 4th of
July celebration last summer and being sprayed with the hose from the
fire truck.. We have a huge 4th Fest thing every summer and draw
thousands to Peabody, and last summer during the parade the fire dept
guys sprayed everyone with the hose on the tank wagon. Also our
athletic team is the politically incorrect "Warriors" tho that might
not be relevant if she started Kaycee before they came here.
"Also my oldest daughter was a jock and played basketball in college
on a scholarship.....so I know something about bb in Kansas. There is
no all-state tournament in the summer. The state activities
association has REAL strict rules about teams getting together to play
during the off season. You can't even attend a summer bb camp if more
than some percentage of team is attending the same one. And teams
NEVER play two games in one day....NEVER, the tournaments run on
consecutive nights and end in March/April. All star games (which my
daughter played in) are always done before school is out. The only
summer all star game is the east west Shrine football game in Wichita.
"She kept talking about playing games in June, etc. If anyone from
Kansas was parked on that site waiting for her every move, they'd have
known right away she wasn't playing ball. No school or professional
gym in their right minds would let kids into an unventilated or
unairconditioned building in the summer around here to play
ball......that's just ASKING for a law suit! The parents would scream
bloody murder if a coach demanded summer practice under those
conditions. We have days and weeks on end of temps over 100 degrees."
Sorry if the formatting is wonky, it didn't behave when I pasted it.
Saundra
545 From: She Of Many Nicknames
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? mistress_misercordia@...
Send Email
I sent some emails, but the only thing I sent that
actually cost money was a really pretty Christmas
card. I didn't get anything in return.
Ellie/Epiphany
--- Nikki wrote:
> I personally sent Kaycee gifts and received some
>
>
=====
I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back,
KEEP ME HERE.
______________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
546 From: Adam Gimbel
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:54pm
Subject: gifts adam@...
Send Email
so, i bring in one of my cd's every day and today i brought in a cd that
someone that i'd never met that i knew from online sent me to cheer me up
after my girlfriend Summer (http://www.thesummersite.com) died of cancer.
i remember how weird i felt about it. it felt REALLY strange to get an
actual gift of sympathy for ME from someone i didn't even know. a few
people had sent cards and even some money to Summer while she was sick and
after she passed away that went to helping pay for hospital bills, funeral
costs, and some charity projects. but, this was for ME. i felt really
guilty and sent some stuff in return. the album DID really make me happy.
did the gifts Debbie got somehow make her happy?
i just keep wondering what Debbie did with all of those hats & gifts and
how she felt when she opened up the packages. was it like Xmas everytime?
did she donate them or give them away?
Adamn
o.o Full weekend of bbq's, Frank Blacks, family brunches & whatnot
`-' Current rave: The Energy Blues by Biz Markie
@--|---> http://mill.net/dumyhead http://www.rookiecardthemovie.com
|
/ \ Cd o' the day (one a day, alphabet stylee yo)
_/ \_ Sloan-Navy Blues
With the recent cancer hoax (http://rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26), it's
weird to bring this in. Someone I'd traded with sent me this before it
came out in the US to cheer me up after Summer died. Incredibly nice
gesture, VERY strange to accept it but it really did make me happy when I
listened to it. They finally came back to SoCal and played one of the
greatest (& loudest) shows I've ever seen. Unreal to see Jay, Chris, Jason
Falkner, Anna Waronker and the McDonald brothers all standing outside
talking before the show. Plus I finally had a "and then we all went back
to Dave Foley's house!" type evenings that tons of people I know have had.
547 From: "Lisa"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:57pm
Subject: Re: On the wire? lisawhirrett@...
5hoax_txt.htm
This article that was posted here earlier says "Associated Press" so
doesn't that mean it's on the wire?
lisa
..not a journalist, but I played one on TV.. : )
548 From: caf@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:05pm
Subject: Re: On the wire? caf@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lisa" wrote:
> This article that was posted here earlier says "Associated
Press" so
> doesn't that mean it's on the wire?
you can search the AP wire here -
http://wire.ap.org/APsearch/main.html
i did a search on "kaycee" and nothing came up.
.cf
549 From: "Joe"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:09pm
Subject: Fox News sardines15@...
Send Email
Aplolgies if this has been posted already, but the story made the Fox
site.
Girl Alive and Well, Despite False Internet Reports
Thursday, May 24, 2001
GRACEMONT, Okla. — Get-well wishes and gifts came from around the
world for the young woman whose battle with leukemia was documented
on an Internet site......
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,25662,00.html
J
550 From: roel@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:14pm
Subject: Re: bwg's Press Release.... roel@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., rpgman@e... wrote:
> man, I really feel for this guy.....cheer up big fella.
>
> http://vanderwoning.com/mess.shtml
>
> rpgman66
Reading the recent 'BWG's Mess' statement convinced me a little bit
more that "Debbie" has some form of Munchausen-by-proxy syndrome.
There is so much medical detail in the statements she made to the Mr.
VanderWoning. Furthermore, it's seems obvious that "Debbie" enjoyed
and probably needs the attention and sympathy her weblog gave her.
I for one think that it's a positive fact that she used a 'virtual'
person in stead of one of her own (or someone elses) 'real life'
child to fake illness. In no way I'm suggesting to let everyone with
Munchausen-by-proxy start a weblog (but I've encountered children
damaged by 'parents' suffering from Munchausen).
Just a professional opinion.
RJB, MD.
http://www.nonharmful.com
551 From: saundra@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:25pm
Subject: Re: Fox News saundra@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Joe" wrote:
> Aplolgies if this has been posted already, but the story made the
Fox site.
This is also credited to AP, and it's mostly the same as what was in
the Wichita Eagle, so apparently it is on the wires now.
S.
552 From: yahoo@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:21pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article yahoo@...
Send Email
> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> > this.....he thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned
> > up to having followed the Kaycee web site so I guess he is
> > one of those who are unhappy with the ending. He was checking
> > to see if there really was a Debbie Swenson. So you might
> > check out the Pocono Record.....I had to pull up Pocono Mts
> > to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you might be
> > smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he
> > will write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but
> > I didn't see it on their home page where they listed the
> > staff...probably the janitor skulking around playing ace
> > reporter."
Not a janitor, their web designer. Anyone remember that Eric Brooks
is the web designer for the Pocono Record? www.ericbrooks.com
:) Suzanne
553 From: "Allison S."
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 23 allison5@...
Send Email
I haven't posted much here, but have been following pretty closely. I have
a contact with the AP in Tallahassee, FL who I could tip off about this
story if need be. He writes for broadcast, but would know the right person
to make aware of the story. I don't know how often he'll check his email
over the weekend, but it's worth a shot.
Allison
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 2:08 PM
Subject: kaycee-nicole Digest Number 23
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 7 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article
> From: yahoo@...
> 2. OT: blogs on CNN
> From: "Lia Bulaong"
> 3. Re: OT: blogs on CNN
> From:
> 4. Re: OT: blogs on CNN
> From: "Lia Bulaong"
> 5. Re: OT: blogs on CNN
> From: dhartung@...
> 6. Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article
> From: metrocake@...
> 7. Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article
> From: dhartung@...
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:20:16 -0000
> From: yahoo@...
> Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article
>
> This would be Eric Brooks
>
> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/
>
> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.
>
>
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
> >
> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> this.....he
> > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having
> followed
> > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy
> with
> > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie
> > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to
> pull
> > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you
> might
> > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he
> will
> > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't
> see
> > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the
> > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."
> >
> > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:
> >
> >
> http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052
> > 5hoax_txt.htm
> >
> > Saundra
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:34:36 +0800
> From: "Lia Bulaong"
> Subject: OT: blogs on CNN
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,
> talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,
> googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a
> psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because
> "they have strong personalities" or something like that.
>
> Nope, sorry, no Debbie!
>
> Lia
>
> http://cheesedip.com
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:39:38 -0500
> From:
> Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN
>
> I believe that was an interview that Evan did quite a while ago.. like a
couple of weeks.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lia Bulaong
> To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:34 PM
> Subject: kaycee-nicole OT: blogs on CNN
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,
> talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,
> googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a
> psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because
> "they have strong personalities" or something like that.
>
> Nope, sorry, no Debbie!
>
> Lia
>
> http://cheesedip.com
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> www.
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> This message contained attachments
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:43:04 +0800
> From: "Lia Bulaong"
> Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> jr said:
> > I believe that was an interview that Evan did quite a while ago.. like
> > a couple of weeks.
>
> Yes, dearie, I know. You're not the only person who reads
> Evhead.
>
> Lia
>
> http://cheesedip.com
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:52:15 -0000
> From: dhartung@...
> Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lia Bulaong" wrote:
> > I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,
> > talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,
> > googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a
> > psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because
> > "they have strong personalities" or something like that.
>
> Lia, was this CNNdotCOM or just mixed in with general news? I assume
> you're watching CNN International.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:53:32 -0000
> From: metrocake@...
> Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article
>
> I take it he's the "ericbrooksdotcom" from Metafilter?
>
> -- roe
>
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
> > This would be Eric Brooks
> >
> > http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/
> >
> > He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> > > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
> > >
> > > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> > this.....he
> > > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having
> > followed
> > > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy
> > with
> > > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie
> > > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to
> > pull
> > > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you
> > might
> > > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he
> > will
> > > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't
> > see
> > > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the
> > > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."
> > >
> > > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052
> > > 5hoax_txt.htm
> > >
> > > Saundra
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:56:59 -0000
> From: dhartung@...
> Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., commidd@y... wrote:
> > > This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story
> > picked
> > > up on the wire?
> >
> > That's a good question. I haven't seen it posted anywhere
> > else, or on the AP site, but that doesn't mean it's not
> > there either. Anyone have any inside info?
>
> I've searched every wire source out there, again, and nada. Yahoo for
> Reuters, wire.ap.org for Associated Press, even ABCNews Raw.
> Moreover.com, OTOH, did pull up the Wichita article directly, on
> keyword Kaycee, but nothing newer other than the Iconocast article.
>
> It didn't necessarily actually get on the wire, and I don't know but
> what there may be local conventions. I do know that local papers scam
> stories from each other all the time, sometimes without attribution!
>
> Should pick up again if it goes out on the New York Times News
> Service ... oops, have I said too much? ;-)
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
554 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:20pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
> This would be Eric Brooks
> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/
> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.
So Eric's working to prove that Debbie's not a real person, after
abusing all the people who thought Kaycee might be a fake? At least
he's consistently wrong.
555 From: nycpug@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article nycpug@...
Send Email
Yes, and the same Eric Brooks who just admitted to cheating at
Webbieworld by having a hidden frame autoloading votes for him.
http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/#newsitem990782357,51781,
Nice guy, eh?
Faith
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
> This would be Eric Brooks
>
> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/
>
> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.
>
>
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:
> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:
> >
> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get
> this.....he
> > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having
> followed
> > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy
> with
> > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie
> > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to
> pull
> > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you
> might
> > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he
> will
> > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't
> see
> > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the
> > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."
> >
> > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:
> >
> >
>
http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052
> > 5hoax_txt.htm
> >
> > Saundra
556 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:31pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...
Send Email
> "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday
Yep... that would be me.
> and get this.....he
> thinks YOU guys are a fraud.
No actually, my red flags were raised about "The Peabody Gazette".
Anyone check out the interNIC whois info?
http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?
STRING=peabodykansas.com
The site was set up in January... there are no articles from the
previous week. I just wanted to check out if this site was
conveniently created to corroborate the whole story one way or
another.
I didn't accuse *anyone* of being a fraud. The story still reeks on
several sides, and I wanted to establish if there really *is* a
Debbie Swenson or this is an authentic newspaper.
There's still a lot of things not adding up.
>I don't know if he will write anything or not.
No I told this person I was planning on writing about Kaycee shortly
after her death...
> probably the
> janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."
heh heh... who wrote this note, I'll kick their ass. :0)
557 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:35pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., nycpug@a... wrote:
> Yes, and the same Eric Brooks who just admitted to cheating at
> Webbieworld by having a hidden frame autoloading votes for him.
> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/#newsitem990782357,51781,
> Nice guy, eh?
Eric is trying hard to make this his Waterloo. A quote from his
blog:
"When you guys are all done being mad at Debbie (assuming she
exists...) I would like to welcome her into my very small (but
probably larger that your...) circle of friends."
Whatta maroon. Why are we focusing so much energy on giving John a
hard time for being too trusting, when we could just make fun of Eric?
558 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:42pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "gOdOfMiScHiEf" wrote:
> The site was set up in January... there are no articles from the
> previous week.
There are articles dating back to at least Feb. 7 on that site:
http://www.peabodykansas.com/6news_index.html
> I didn't accuse *anyone* of being a fraud. The story still reeks
on
> several sides, and I wanted to establish if there really *is* a
> Debbie Swenson or this is an authentic newspaper.
On Sunday night, I checked the tax records for the Peabody, Kansas,
address that was circulated on MetaFilter in one of the Kaycee
threads. Debbie and Tom Swenson live there.
The Fullbrights have said in at least two interviews that they know
Debbie and the other members of the Swenson family. What more
confirmation do you need?
559 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:50pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...
> confirmation do you need?
Well if there's one thing I learned from that MetaFilter thread was
that we shouldn't go on anything just on someone's say-so. at this
point I don't believe a damn thing from anyone until I see solid
proof.
Can we at least agree on that one, sparky?
560 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:54pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...
Send Email
"Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:
> There are articles dating back to at least Feb. 7 on that site:
Well, you must know some magic back-door on that site, because
the "Previous Week" link is dead, I can't find "Archives", and their
search engine takes you to Newsling.Org.
561 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 10:12pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "gOdOfMiScHiEf" wrote:
> Well, you must know some magic back-door on that site, because
> the "Previous Week" link is dead, I can't find "Archives", and
their
> search engine takes you to Newsling.Org.
They appear to have screwed up the Previous Week link today or
yesterday -- it worked when the article was first posted. However,
when the Previous Week link is to 20nav.htm, it doesn't take a magic
back door -- I just looked for older archives at 19nav.htm, 18nav.htm
and so on.
562 From: "Roberta Africa-Johnson"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 10:23pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article schwanze69@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "gOdOfMiScHiEf" wrote:
> > Well, you must know some magic back-door on that site, because
> > the "Previous Week" link is dead, I can't find "Archives", and
> their
> > search engine takes you to Newsling.Org.
>
> They appear to have screwed up the Previous Week link today or
> yesterday -- it worked when the article was first posted. However,
> when the Previous Week link is to 20nav.htm, it doesn't take a
magic
> back door -- I just looked for older archives at 19nav.htm,
18nav.htm
> and so on.
if you type this link it gives an apache error with more filenames!
http://www.peabodykansas.com/1news_index.html
563 From: memorable_for_you2001@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 10:58pm
Subject: Hey now -- watch it..... memorable_for_you2001@...
Send Email
> No actually, my red flags were raised about "The Peabody Gazette".
> Anyone check out the interNIC whois info?
> http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?
> STRING=peabodykansas.com
>
> The site was set up in January... there are no articles from the
> previous week. I just wanted to check out if this site was
> conveniently created to corroborate the whole story one way or
> another.
THe Peabody Gazette has been in existence for years. In the last
year it was sold to the publisher of the newspaper in the county seat
of Marion. The news is gathered in Peabody but sent to Marion for
setting in the paper. I imagine that is why they are now on-line.
Peabody has only been on the internet for about three years as the
closest "local number" was an hour away. We aren't quite as up-to-
speed as the bigger communities because of our rural location.
Peabody is a proud community. Our 1880's Main Street is a tourist
attraction in the state. We aren't the Kaycee story -- it just
happened to come from here.
Don't pull us into the fraud.
564 From: dhartung@...
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:10pm
Subject: Co-Moderators dhartung@...
Send Email
In anticipation of the holiday weekend (Monday is US Memorial Day),
when I'll be mostly unavailable, I've appointed Lia, Saundra, and
Rogers co-moderators. They're empowered to remove offensive or
inappropriate posts, and remove or ban members if that should prove
necessary. Beyond that, I've asked them to referee keeping
discussions on topic. I hope they have nothing to do! Maybe by the
time I'm back we'll all be bored to death of this story. :)
Dan
565 From: "Jenifer"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:11pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article jourdannex@...
Send Email
You mean Eric is real?
He walks? He talks? He shares the Earth with us?
Say it isn't so
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Tim Cunningham"
wrote:
> My apologies to Eric Brooks for doubting his existance. Glad to
know
> that he is not another alias for Debbie
>
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:
> > This would be Eric Brooks
> >
> > http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/
> >
> > He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.
566 From: "Jon Sullivan"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:27pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article jon@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:
> Why are we focusing so much energy on giving John a
> hard time for being too trusting, when we could just
> make fun of Eric?
Well, maybe because Eric *likes* you to make fun of him. The more you
abuse Brooks, the happier he is. Some sort of "pig in shit" complex.
Personally, I found Eric last year after he trashed some web design I
did. I made it my gaol in life to flame him out of existence.
Eventually I actually grew to like the little spaz.
Don't think for one second he doesn't know exactly what he's doing.
And what people will think of it. For myself - I find it amusing.
Your mileage may vary.
567 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:58pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jon Sullivan" wrote:
> Well, maybe because Eric *likes* you to make fun of him. The more
you
> abuse Brooks, the happier he is. Some sort of "pig in shit" complex.
>
> Personally, I found Eric last year after he trashed some web design
I
> did. I made it my gaol in life to flame him out of existence.
> Eventually I actually grew to like the little spaz.
There's a certain amount of charm in someone who is so consistently,
aggressively wrong. I would have been disappointed if he came away
from this experience chastened and humbled, vowing to think first
before flying off the handle.
I'd also like to see John Styn change nothing from his experience.
I've always enjoyed his sites and his genuine positive attitude, as
much as I find it personally unnerving. There aren't many people who
could write an essay on the importance of maintaining a good vibe at
a party without a hint of ironic detachment. If the price of all that
is an overwillingness to believe in babealicious, corn-fed 19-year-
old coeds whose health battles sound like a Lifetime movie, I think
we should be willing to pay that price.
568 From: "matt"
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 0:16am
Subject: Re: On the wire? captcrackpipe@...
Send Email
The AP website doesn't have access to every story on the wire. Ditto
any other website.
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., caf@y... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lisa" wrote:
>
> > This article that was posted here earlier says "Associated
> Press" so
> > doesn't that mean it's on the wire?
>
> you can search the AP wire here -
> http://wire.ap.org/APsearch/main.html
>
> i did a search on "kaycee" and nothing came up.
>
>
> .cf
569 From: "Cheryl Eve"
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 0:29am
Subject: Munchausen-by-Internet... angelwng@...
Send Email
Even though the diagnosis of Munchausen-by-proxy is a tough one to
make, I agree with this assessment, but I do think that the potential
for harm to existing children still exists. I'm thinking of many of
the things Debbie wrote about her daughter and husband, and the
curious lack of much to say about her son. It seems that long term
harm could very easily come from the comments from "Kaycee" about her
sister that basically said "even though i'm tall, blonde, slim,
popular, athletic, and all-around 'awesome' - my sister is awesome in
her own way." My take, obviously, on her comments that they were
condasending and clear that the kid sister didn't measure up.
Yes, many online folks who knew her have had their feelings hurt, but
imagine reading those things as your mothers' inner feelings about
you. We'll all get over this - her daughter might not.
Certainly it's speculation, but an interesting one to consider if the
internet version becomes widely recognized as a twist on this
syndrome. (Watch for the section in a college text book coming soon,
perhaps ;)
P.S. on a similar vein, Mr. Brooks and his various nicks have an
interesting knack for re-directing discussions back to himself. Even
though it's fun in a loopy sort of way to watch his version of train
wrecks, hopefully, we won't let that distract us toward any wild(er)
goose chases!
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., roel@n... wrote:
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., rpgman@e... wrote:
> > man, I really feel for this guy.....cheer up big fella.
> >
> > http://vanderwoning.com/mess.shtml
> >
> > rpgman66
>
> Reading the recent 'BWG's Mess' statement convinced me a little bit
> more that "Debbie" has some form of Munchausen-by-proxy syndrome.
> There is so much medical detail in the statements she made to the
Mr.
> VanderWoning. Furthermore, it's seems obvious that "Debbie" enjoyed
> and probably needs the attention and sympathy her weblog gave her.
> I for one think that it's a positive fact that she used a 'virtual'
> person in stead of one of her own (or someone elses) 'real life'
> child to fake illness. In no way I'm suggesting to let everyone
with
> Munchausen-by-proxy start a weblog (but I've encountered children
> damaged by 'parents' suffering from Munchausen).
>
> Just a professional opinion.
>
> RJB, MD.
> http://www.nonharmful.com
570 From: "Caroline"
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:35am
Subject: Re: On the wire? cedly@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "matt" wrote:
> The AP website doesn't have access to every story on the wire.
Ditto
> any other website.
>
> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., caf@y... wrote:
> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lisa" wrote:
> >
> > > This article that was posted here earlier says "Associated
> > Press" so
> > > doesn't that mean it's on the wire?
Even if you have access to the wire itself, not just the site,
searching the AP can be really ridiculous -- it's designed more so
newspapers can browse through the news based on "urgent" warnings and
read digests they post listing the top stories of the day/hour/etc.
Keywords turn up in the headlines (for example "Bush-TaxCut"
or "China-Plane") so maybe "InternetHoax" would be something they'd
name a story like this, but it's really hard to find words in the
content of the article. (At least, that's how our wire worked. Maybe
there's some sort of "bonus subscription" I'm unaware of, hah.)
571 From: "Kristin"
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:32pm
Subject: Kaycee Yahoo Club tokristin@...
Send Email
----- Original Message -----
From:
> In anticipation of the holiday weekend (Monday is US Memorial Day),
> when I'll be mostly unavailable, I've appointed Lia, Saundra, and
> Rogers co-moderators.
Woohoo! Time to cause a ruckus!!
Sadly, two exclamation marks is about as much ruckus as I can cause. On a
slightly more serious note, did anyone here archive any of the postings or
membership list from the Kaycee Yahoo Club?
If you did, can you get in touch with me?
Thanks much,
Kristin
http://www.sperare.com
572 From: lucinder@...
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 9:04am
Subject: The "Kaycees" of the World lucinder@...
Send Email
Even though I am angry and hurting over
this deception, I am now more aware of
the "kaycees" of the rest of the world.
I do not want to close myself off to
others who may one day reach me the same
way Debbie did to all of us, but to those
who are real and genuine, real-life people.
Kaycee came to us at a wonderful website
where we were all friends and like family.
We took her in a real family member and
faught with her everyday thier were people
cheering her on, and in return we all
seemed to recieve some kind of inspiration
from her words, and a broader prospective
of a new appreciation of life.
Finding out it was a hoax at first made many
of us angry and hurt. But a lot of us are
still struggling to remain trusting,
loving, and compassionate toward strangers
out there. In NO WAY do we want to let this
experience tarnish our inner faith in people
as a whole.
There are MANY kaycees in the world right now.
"KAYCEE" will always represent that newfound
appreciation of life that I learned from the
weblogs...real or fabricated...it touched me.
I still feel anger and feel ultimately
betrayed, but I promise myself and to all
the other "kaycees" that I wont let this
experience change my faith in people or my
compassion for a stranger who comes in a
chatroom to invite me into thier world,
however challenging it may be.
573 From: "John Harris Stevenson <tranquileye.com>"
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: "Kaycee Nicole" Search Makes Yahoo Buzz Index tranquileye@...
Send Email
Kaycee Nicole search enters Yahoo Buzz Index at number 4 with a
bullet, ahead of Robert Downey Jr. and behind James Jeffords:
http://buzz.yahoo.com/movers/overall/
Good to see surfers have their priorities straight.
Guess where the chart link points? Right here.
Johnny
574 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Hey now -- watch it..... okeyloki@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:
> Peabody is a proud community...We aren't the Kaycee story -- it
just
> happened to come from here.
>
> Don't pull us into the fraud.
That's all fine and good. And I'm ready to chalk up my suspicions to
bad coding. I work for a chain of newspapers owned by Ottaway
newspapers and Dow Jones. While we have a more state-of-the-art way
of retrieving news via AP servers and custom programming, many of
our "brother and sister" papers still do their sites by hand.
So I'm willing to concede that there's an actual paper called "The
Peabody Gazzete".
Fine. Done. Out of the way.
To Whoever returned my call when I left a message (Maybe it was you,
I didn't catch a name... my boss reams me out constantly for that).
I didn't think a small town paper was going to call the Poconos so I
left my email address: webmaster@....
To go through great lengths to find the Pocono Record site after that
tells me you guys aren't very tech saavy.
Fine.
**********
This will be the last time I try to explain where I'm coming from...
**********
I spent two days defending what turned out to be lies. Now I'm going
to start from scratch, assume nothing, and establish facts from the
ground up. This has pissed off a few people here, as they have
already established things and posted them here.
Well fine, you know it's true... you know you're legit. But how do I
know someone here is not Debbie throwing in little tidbits to knock
us off track? That's what *I* would do if I were her.
That's all. I'm doing this out of personal curiosity to get the
quest for the truth. I put a load of questions together, and will
rule out each of my theorums out systematically.
I'll read through this discussion group when I have the time to find
out what's been established.
575 From: okeyloki@...
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:
>I would have been disappointed if he came away
> from this experience chastened and humbled, vowing to think first
> before flying off the handle.
Well, hate to dissapoint you buddy... but that's exactly what I
conceded the day after it was all proven a lie at MetaFilter:
http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/990319486,44381,.shtml
I was wrong... I apologized.
Can we *PLEASE* move on????
576 From: "Lia Bulaong"
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article me@...
Eric wrote:
> Well, hate to dissapoint you buddy... but that's exactly what I
> conceded the day after it was all proven a lie at MetaFilter:
>
> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/990319486,44381,.shtml
Hate to disappoint you, buddy, but a) apparently nobody goes to
your site to read what you have to say, and b) disappoint has one
s and two ps.
So how do we know YOU aren't Debbie? Since you've spread
disinformation since the beginning, and we've now established that
neither of you can spell. Heh.
Lia
http://cheesedip.com
577 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 3:02pm
Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...
Send Email
--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lia Bulaong"