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KCArchive3

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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kaycee-Nicole

 

kaycee-nicole · Kaycee Nicole Forum

 

426 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:50pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> > The immoral decision was to do it in the first place, but I don't

> > think she really understood what she was doing in the first place.

>

> I don't think it's fair to say this is all the consequences of a

> single unethical decision. She made a series of them, ignoring

> numerous opportunities to do the right thing.

>

> At any time, she could have claimed that Kaycee wanted more

privacy,

> stopped updating the diary and ended the phone calls and

> correspondence with her online acquaintances.

 

Unfortunately, that would have been out of character for the

synthetic personality she had created.

 

I'm certainly not trying to claim that there was only one ethical

mistake. You're right that there were a series of bad decisions. But

I think it was more like being on a railroad track and only being

presented with awful choices.

 

None of which forgives her for what she did.

 

 

427 From: maudlin@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:52pm

Subject: Article on identity theft at Feed maudlin@...

Send Email

 

Clay Shirky makes passing reference to Kaycee Nicole in an article

focusing on yet another case:

 

http://www.feedmag.com/templates/default.php3?a_id=1715

 

From his conclusion:

 

"Instead of creating a neutral arms race, where spoofers

and their discoverers both get newly powerful tools, the

Net has handed the spoofers huge advantages while

forcing potentially corrosive distrust on the average

citizens. As is so often the case, the best and worst

aspects of the Internet are completely intertwined. Just

as lowered message costs led to spam, the increased

ease with which an individual can (re-)publish to the

world opens the door for Dennis Lee and his ilk, and there

is no simple solution. Until the citizens of the Internet

develop the kind of social antennae required to detect

spoofed identity that earlier generations needed to sniff

pyramid schemes and con artists, the prevalence of, and

damage from, online spoofing is going to get a lot worse

before it gets better."

 

 

428 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:54pm

Subject: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "John H Stevenson"

wrote:

> Aaron, what exactly is a "compassion Nazi"?

>

> John

 

I know how I interpreted it. There have been several times in the

past when people brought up doubts about the Kaycee story, and each

time they did, the true believers denounced them viciously for being

heartless, uncaring, cynical and generally stupid for not

understanding how important and vital this beautiful young woman was.

 

Being gullible merely means getting convinced by a con. These people

went a step further and actively suppressed any discussion of the

possibility that there was a hoax. Even as late as last Friday, BWG

posted a really bitter denunciation of the people who were

questioning the story.

 

By Saturday, the doubts being raised were too cogent for him to

ignore, and he also began to doubt. By Sunday he had called Debbie on

the phone and as a result of that she confessed to the hoax.

 

What justifies the phrase "compassion Nazis" (perhaps a little

extreme) was the suppression of those who doubted.

 

 

429 From: "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:45pm

Subject: Of weblogs and other stuff rich@...

Send Email

 

Other stuff, first; I find it kind of funny that over 50% of the posts here

are self-referrals to drive traffic to the poster's site to read what they

have wrote. Also, there seem to be a lot of people form small towns in

Kansas here.

 

The weblog discussion peaked my interest a bit in how people were defining

them, and so forth.

 

As far as I was concerned, 'weblogs' mostly use a type of software that makes

it easy to update their site (such as Blogger), and was a quick and dirty.

 

The less-used type of site today used to be the personal narrative (old Lance

Arthur, Alexis Massie, etc) that was replaced in many ways by the

proliferation of weblogs - mainly because weblogs have a lower barrier to

entry than a standard web page does, and the penchant for incestual linking

among groups of webloggers creates the ability to garner an instant audience,

and thus gratification in keeping the log going.

 

While I would never say all weblogs lack a type of artistic quality to the

writing, and a visible effort in crafting language, most are easily related

to personal diaries opened up to the web for mass consumption by strangers.

Now, I'm not denegrating weblogs thorugh this definition, as they obviously

fill a void for their readers, or else they wouldn't be so popular.

 

The point is, though, that this kind of site naturally seems to have social

implications. The writing is more raw, and sounds more 'truthful' or 'real'

than more creative writing. This, then, gives a fast and close connection to

the writer as the reader is immersed in the minute-by-minute life of the

writer. Little effort is required by the reader to find the points or

nuances affecting the writer. But at the same time, the depth of knowledge

may, in fact, be less. In personal narrative, topics usually are explored

more in depth, with the reasoning and deaper feelings exposed while in a

daily journal, the relationship between writer and reader is much more

shallow.

 

This can easily be related to the KayCee fiasco. A complex person is hard to

fabricate, and keep going. However, the mundane trials and events, as well

as the kind of on-the-phone banter that happens without the small clues

face-to-face conversations give makes an easier breeding ground for someone

like KC.

 

Hmm.. this note has grown way past the length I intended. Ah well. Just

some thoughts.

 

-r

 

 

430 From: misssassy_pants@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:15pm

Subject: hit & run misssassy_pants@...

Send Email

 

kaycee nicole is featured in today's suck/ http://www.suck.com

 

 

431 From: "Tara"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:12pm

Subject: Re: Re: Burned by Kaycee? tara@...

Send Email

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jon Sullivan

To:

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 4:16 PM

Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: Burned by Kaycee?

 

> I don't understand. Is the humor inappropriate? I don't see how. No

> one died. People like Halcyon and BWG (both of whom still have my

> respect) may be "grieving", it's time we recognized that no one

died.

 

the fact that nobody died does not mean that it is possible to "step

out" of the virtual KC relationship just like that. You can grieve the

loss of an ideal. You can grieve the loss of a relationship you

thought you had. You can grieve the loss of the idea that people can

be trusted. The loss of your confidence to realize when you are being

played.

 

> We got played people. It's not unhealthy to take a step back and

find

> some humor in the situation. A laugh will do you good at this point.

 

It will come. Maybe. I didn't have a relationship with KC, just read

her blog for a month or two, and honestly I don't feel like laughing

yet. Trying to push people into humor before they are ready for it

does nobody good. Remember that for some people, this event might be

resonating with past injuries. I know it's my case, and I know there

are others.

 

I guess that for most people who were "involved", they aren't just

dealing with the "KC stuff" right now. You can't isolate this event

and just tell people to "get over it".

 

Tara

Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org

[no tables! http://climbtothestars.org/coding/tableless.php]

Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net

 

 

432 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:20pm

Subject: Re: hit & run sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., misssassy_pants@y... wrote:

> kaycee nicole is featured in today's suck/ http://www.suck.com

 

This is a better link:

 

http://www.suck.com/daily/2001/05/24/

 

 

433 From: Peggy Butterworth

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:37pm

Subject: Re: hit & run pbutterw@...

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Follow a link at the bottom of that story and you get this article, with

a different slant on forging an identity on the net.

 

http://www.feedmag.com/templates/default.php3?a_id=1715

 

misssassy_pants@... wrote:

 

> kaycee nicole is featured in today's suck/ http://www.suck.com

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>

>

>

 

 

434 From: dhartung@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:29pm

Subject: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon dhartung@...

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--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "John H Stevenson"

> wrote:

> > Aaron, what exactly is a "compassion Nazi"?

> >

> > John

>

> I know how I interpreted it. There have been several times in the

> past when people brought up doubts about the Kaycee story, and each

> time they did, the true believers denounced them viciously for

being

> heartless, uncaring, cynical and generally stupid for not

> understanding how important and vital this beautiful young woman

was.

>

> Being gullible merely means getting convinced by a con. These

people

> went a step further and actively suppressed any discussion of the

> possibility that there was a hoax. Even as late as last Friday, BWG

> posted a really bitter denunciation of the people who were

> questioning the story.

 

Agreed. Indeed, AFTER the exposure -- around Monday night -- a

certain weblogger who shall remain nameless was even arguing that the

chance the doubters were wrong was too great -- they should have

asked their questions more carefully. Kaycee's "family" might have

been hurt. Myself, I can't see how the critics could have been any

MORE careful: doubts were raised in public as far back as September

2000, and yet it took the fictional "death" for them to gain any

traction, and it wasn't until bwg took the site down that some people

really believed it.

 

My response then is the same as now: the doubters only looked rude to

those who Wanted to Believe. As someone who never got sucked in in

the first place (and I'm not being proud here), I feel an objective

reading of the doubters' questions -- they're all linked over there

in bookmarks -- shows a high degree of care and civility. Hell,

Saundra even disguised HER questions in satire until too many people

e-mailed her.

 

Now, I recognize at the same time that people such as Halcyon and bwg

were considered pretty unimpeachable references. That was more or

less a luck-of-the-draw thing, I guess: it's not often that a scammer

like this will have a year-plus history built up with a guy who ends

up winning a Webby and knows seemingly everyone in the San Francisco

web community. I mean, that's pretty much the paper trail that the

defense always followed: hey, so-and-so says she's real; and so-and-

so says that Halcyon/bwg says she's real. It was only the fact that

bwg wasn't as well-known as Styn by a factor of 10-to-100 that

allowed people to question his defense.

 

It's tough. I agree, there was a herd mentality of the defenders, but

they did have extraordinarily good fallback positions. I think that's

an exception. It doesn't excuse the tautological defense, though,

because nobody even questioned that Styn and van der Woning could

themselves have been duped.

 

 

435 From: dhartung@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:39pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"

wrote:

> Other stuff, first; I find it kind of funny that over 50% of

> the posts here are self-referrals to drive traffic to the

> poster's site to read what they have wrote.

 

I count approximately 5, out of 430-odd messages. That's barely 1%, a

little short of your estimate of 50%.

 

> Also, there seem to be a lot of people form small towns in

> Kansas here.

 

One has come out, maybe two. You're not helping your credibility here.

 

regurgitate old points about blogs

 

> The point is, though, that this kind of site naturally seems to

> have social implications. The writing is more raw, and sounds

> more 'truthful' or 'real' than more creative writing.

 

That's an unnecessary slap. Were Kerouac and Ginsberg uncreative

because they were raw?

 

> nuances affecting the writer. But at the same time, the depth

> of knowledge may, in fact, be less. In personal narrative,

> topics usually are explored more in depth, with the reasoning

> and deaper feelings exposed while in a daily journal, the

> relationship between writer and reader is much more shallow.

 

I think you're grasping at straws here. It can just as easily be

argued that the blog form allows more intimate access to a writer's

thoughts and feelings, and the intermittent nature allows the

interactive development of reasoning much as in a conversation.

 

> This can easily be related to the KayCee fiasco. A complex

> person is hard to fabricate, and keep going. However, the

> mundane trials and events, as well as the kind of on-the-phone

> banter that happens without the small clues face-to-face

> conversations give makes an easier breeding ground for someone

> like KC.

 

Truisms, such as noting that people you haven't met face-to-face

can't possibly be proven real, are something we have hopefully

discarded during this process.

 

 

436 From: "matt"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:52pm

Subject: Re: Italian News Coverage captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

Hey, this one wasn't bad either, but I thought Living Colors went on

for less than a year.

 

«LIVING COLORS» - Ogni giorno, da quasi due anni,

 

Also looks like this group might be getting a couple Italian members.

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> Didn't know if you guys had seen this one:

>

>

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/05_Maggio/24/truffa.shtml

>

> Italian newspaper, Corriere della Sera

>

> Saundra

 

 

437 From: "Lia Bulaong"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:01pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff me@...

Send Email

 

Hi everyone,

 

Just a few little notes in response to rich's, um, long note:

 

> As far as I was concerned, 'weblogs' mostly use a type of software

> that makes it easy to update their site (such as Blogger), and was a

> quick and dirty.

 

This is a rehash of the tired old typewriters-are-better-than-

computers-because-it-takes-more-time-to-write-with-them-and-

therefore-more-thought argument. Okay? Okay. Let's move on.

 

> The less-used type of site today used to be the personal narrative

> (old Lance Arthur, Alexis Massie, etc) that was replaced in many ways

> by the proliferation of weblogs - mainly because weblogs have a lower

> barrier to entry than a standard web page does, and the penchant for

> incestual linking among groups of webloggers creates the ability to

> garner an instant audience, and thus gratification in keeping the log

> going.

 

Weblogs have a lower barrier to entry than a dumb old geoshitties

page? Have you SEEN those things? I mean, really, when

homepages are bad, they're just plain BAD, whether they're a

weblog or journal, or just a bunch of pages of someone's favorite

quotes and links full of animated gifs slapped together with a

crappy online editor.

 

Plenty of people keep weblogs without anyone besides their

mothers or close friends visiting them. Come on, people have been

signing guestbooks with the most flowery of compliments for as

long as guestbooks have been around in the hopes that the owner

will take notice and link back to them or visit their page.

 

And considering the large amount of webloggers that have gone

on vacation recently because they need a break, many of them

among the most popular, public gratification is obviously less

important than personal satisfaction, or they'd never quit.

 

> While I would never say all weblogs lack a type of artistic quality to

> the writing, and a visible effort in crafting language, most are

> easily related to personal diaries opened up to the web for mass

> consumption by strangers. Now, I'm not denegrating weblogs thorugh

> this definition, as they obviously fill a void for their readers, or

> else they wouldn't be so popular.

 

And, of course, we all know mass consumption is a bad thing

because the masses are STUPID! Ah. I see this is going to go the

low-brow vs high-brow route.

 

> The point is, though, that this kind of site naturally seems to have

> social implications. The writing is more raw, and sounds more

> 'truthful' or 'real' than more creative writing. This, then, gives a

> fast and close connection to the writer as the reader is immersed in

> the minute-by-minute life of the writer. Little effort is required by

> the reader to find the points or nuances affecting the writer. But at

> the same time, the depth of knowledge may, in fact, be less. In

> personal narrative, topics usually are explored more in depth, with

> the reasoning and deaper feelings exposed while in a daily journal,

> the relationship between writer and reader is much more shallow.

 

This is either the sister or cousin of Ben Brown's (in)famous 3000+

words manifesto, I can't decide which. Either way, it's the relative

no-one invites to family events like baptisms or birthday parties

because it's so darn tootin' snooty. Let me go out on a limb here

and guess that you also think that comic books are just for kids.

 

Could we please go beyond these journals-are-better-than-their-

lowly-cousins-weblogs discussions already? I mean, really, the

holier-than-thou tone that always but always starts things isn't

really meant to engage in dialogue, but to pontificate.

 

In the end, none of this ideological nattering (mine included) really

matters anyway: people will keep journals if they like keeping

journals, and people will keep weblogs if they like keeping

weblogs. People will visit one type or the other or both. Neither is

inherently intellectually superior or attractive or easy to do. Both

work, when done properly. I fail to see the need for a pissing

contest.

 

> This can easily be related to the KayCee fiasco. A complex person is

> hard to fabricate, and keep going. However, the mundane trials and

> events, as well as the kind of on-the-phone banter that happens

> without the small clues face-to-face conversations give makes an

> easier breeding ground for someone like KC.

 

And your point was what exactly?

 

Lia

 

http://cheesedip.com (yes, I have a weblog, and no, I wouldn't die

if nobody visited because I do it for ME)

 

 

438 From: tim733ID@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:03pm

Subject: Re: my feelings tim733ID@...

Send Email

 

> The member velocityiseverything@y... has been banned for this

> uncalled-for personal attack.

 

I've seen a couple places where less sensitive voices are still being

shut down.

 

Wasn't it always about his feelings? The suffering of what was said

to be a beautiful spirit was packaged and promoted, made a fetish

object for the public display of love and caring. People made uneasy

by the emoting for an audience were shouted down.

 

And that is still how some involvement is explained: "care too

much", "pure love", "full of love", "won't stop caring". This is how

people explain themselves. Isn't there an arrogance in this self-

image? "I am unlike other people," it says. "I FEEL!"

 

Halcyon was said to love everyone in the world. Even if this is his

true spirit, it must take an awful lot of work to maintain. A person

of such reputation is going to need "causes" like this one as other

people need oxygen. This one would never have been so malleable to

that need if it wasn't so hollow at its centre.

 

And it's still about his feelings. Oh the horror, he had his nipple

pierced. Be sure to tune into TheRealHouse™ to wallow in his

feelings.

 

 

439 From: "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:03pm

Subject: Re: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff rich@...

Send Email

 

I doubt weblogs on a whole could be related to Ginsberg or Kerouac in

any stretch of the imagination. I see that kind of argument often, yet

I haven't seen anything that remotely reminds me of Howl or On the Road

in creative effort from a weblog. Except maybe Lancelog, of course.

 

I wasn't 'trashing' weblogs - I don't wish to incite the normal response

that generates. I was however, tyring to distinguish weblogs from other

kinds of personal sites. Indeed, many sites today have a weblog, and

then a completely seperate journal section which has a distinctly

different tone and depth to it.

 

As for the truisms at the end, I was not refering to face to face

communication being the way to 'out' imposters, but relating how a truly

complex person is difficult to fake online (surface kind of weblogs v.s.

more in-depth exposure of thought processes, etc), much like a charade

is easier to do over the phone than in person because you get a better

picture of the person. And much like it's easier to nit-pick than it is

to coalesce a substantial argument.

 

Oh, and thanks for the number calculations. I didn't really feel like

going through all the messages and counting everything up myself. I

could have sworn there were more than 5 self-referrals, but I don't feel

like putting in that kind of effort for something so trivial. I'll take

you at your word.

 

-r

 

dhartung@... wrote:

 

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"

> wrote:

> > Other stuff, first; I find it kind of funny that over 50% of

> > the posts here are self-referrals to drive traffic to the

> > poster's site to read what they have wrote.

>

> I count approximately 5, out of 430-odd messages. That's barely 1%, a

> little short of your estimate of 50%.

>

> > Also, there seem to be a lot of people form small towns in

> > Kansas here.

>

> One has come out, maybe two. You're not helping your credibility here.

>

> regurgitate old points about blogs

>

> > The point is, though, that this kind of site naturally seems to

> > have social implications. The writing is more raw, and sounds

> > more 'truthful' or 'real' than more creative writing.

>

> That's an unnecessary slap. Were Kerouac and Ginsberg uncreative

> because they were raw?

>

> > nuances affecting the writer. But at the same time, the depth

> > of knowledge may, in fact, be less. In personal narrative,

> > topics usually are explored more in depth, with the reasoning

> > and deaper feelings exposed while in a daily journal, the

> > relationship between writer and reader is much more shallow.

>

> I think you're grasping at straws here. It can just as easily be

> argued that the blog form allows more intimate access to a writer's

> thoughts and feelings, and the intermittent nature allows the

> interactive development of reasoning much as in a conversation.

>

> > This can easily be related to the KayCee fiasco. A complex

> > person is hard to fabricate, and keep going. However, the

> > mundane trials and events, as well as the kind of on-the-phone

> > banter that happens without the small clues face-to-face

> > conversations give makes an easier breeding ground for someone

> > like KC.

>

> Truisms, such as noting that people you haven't met face-to-face

> can't possibly be proven real, are something we have hopefully

> discarded during this process.

 

--

-r^2, 'magically delicious'

http://www.inferiority.com

rich@...

 

 

440 From: Matthew Haughey

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:17pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff matt@...

Send Email

 

rich robinson wrote (a couple people replied with some stuff I'm too lazy

to quote):

>The weblog discussion peaked my interest a bit in how people were defining

>them, and so forth.

 

Whoa. People, people, I love bashing the weblog basher as much as the next

guy, but aren't we piling on Rich a little here?

 

I agree with the thrust of Rich's argument, weblogs are, by definition,

very personal, so getting readers to buy into what they are reading as "the

truth" is much easier than say, a standard home page, journal or diary.

 

No one would ever think a weblog was fictional until now. They were a

breath of fresh air for many readers, because they were so personal and

intimate (but like Rich said, they didn't have to get mired in details, so

a rouse was possible and also fairly easy). Pre-living colours, they were a

window into someone's daily life and there wasn't a reason to question it,

why would someone fake the mundane? What purpose would it serve to write "I

hate my job, today I ate half a bagel and I was stuffed. LOL." if none of

it were true?

 

I never got into reading journals or diaries until 1997 or so, and I

remember hearing very early on about the bigger fictional projects, so I've

always taken journals with a grain of salt. Looks like I could be doing

that with weblogs in the future, not that that's a bad thing entirely (but

I'm sure fictional weblogs will continue to be quite rare, since it seems a

pointless endeavor to maintain fake daily details).

 

Matt

 

 

441 From: jgrimm@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:17pm

Subject: Re: No villians here jgrimm@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Nikki" wrote:

>

> ... I don't know if I can put into words

> how it feels....not only did one person that you cared about and

knew

> for years die after fighting a long and hard fight with cancer, but

> then to find out that all of it was a lie. It was all made up.

How

> were we to know it was fiction? Was the gifts we received fake?

> Were the phone calls fake?

 

Maybe. But the warmth and love so many people felt for Kaycee -- I

don't think that was at all fake. True, these emotions were based

on -- someone else's -- lie, but a lot of people did a lot of very

good things with wonderful intentions.

 

This shouldn't be the kind of thing that could ever be taken away

from them. That's one of the things I dislike about the "Debbie was

evil and everyone else was a dumb, deluded sap" (I know, I know,

gross caricature) story: it makes all of the people who really pulled

together for Kaycee sound like passive victims, and they deserve

better than that.

 

James

 

 

442 From: "Jon Sullivan"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:28pm

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? jon@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Tara" wrote:

>

> You can't isolate this event

> and just tell people to "get over it".

 

I guess I should clarify. I don't suggest that people "just get over

it." I sympathize with the people who continue to grieve and struggle

with confusion. I personally find the "just get over it" attitude to

be a little offensive. I cried off and on for a couple days when

"Kaycee" died.

 

I just think adding some humor to the mix is appropriate at this

point. But I'm certainly not going to keep poking people until the

start giggling.

 

Jon Sullivan

 

 

443 From: "Glenn Dixon"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:47pm

Subject: Some thoughts glenn@...

Send Email

 

I'm new to the Kaycee controversy but thought I would share some

observations on people and the Internet.

 

I was an early member of the old Firefly community, one of the first

web-based chat rooms. Two things I learned there: 1) The anonymity

and popularity of the Internet attracts hoaxsters, charlatans and

people who 'need' attention; 2) Good, kind-hearted, trusting people

are easily duped by them

 

I saw this on several occasions where someone would log in under two

different aliases. One 'person' (Person A) would begin talking about

how depressed they were. Most people in the room would ignore them,

but a few would 'bite' and attempt to console them. Then Person A

would talk of suicide. Then some others would begin asking incisive,

direct questions, doubters that we were. At this point Person B

would jump in and castigate the doubters for their uncaring, cynical

attitudes. Shortly both Persons A and B would disappear, with Person

B showing up again later to inform the chat room 'not to worry'

because they had talked with Person A in private and had managed to

talk them out of suicide. Person B was now a bonafide hero.

 

As long as there are new people coming online there will be Person

B's and Debbies there to attempt to garner attention, affection and

whatever else they are lacking. Shake your head, learn, move on.

Reserve your sympathies and caring for verifiable, real tragedies and

people. Heaven knows there are plenty of them out there.

 

Glenn

glenn@...

 

 

444 From: "Jon Sullivan"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:49pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff jon@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Matthew Haughey wrote:

> but aren't we piling on Rich a little here?

 

A half dozen post isn't piling on. And the idea that weblogs are fluffy vanity pieces for entertaining people with weak minds is just so tired.

 

No one said it was literature. No one said it was important. Looked at in a demographic sense, weblogs are a tiny little thing. Sure I suppose there's tons of social commentary that could be rung from this. But it's just a weblog.

 

At the end of the day it's just a diary.

 

Jon Sullivan

http://www.jonsullivan.com/

 

 

445 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:12pm

Subject: Re: my feelings raysmj@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., tim733ID@n... wrote:

> > The member velocityiseverything@y... has been banned for this

> > uncalled-for personal attack.

>

> I've seen a couple places where less sensitive voices are still

being

> shut down.

>

> Wasn't it always about his feelings? The suffering of what was said

> to be a beautiful spirit was packaged and promoted, made a fetish

> object for the public display of love and caring. People made

uneasy

> by the emoting for an audience were shouted down.

 

Thank you. I was bothered by the velocity post, and thought after

seeing it that the Kaycee forum was turning into a particularly gross

version of the Jerry Springer show. Velocity was being reactionary,

and deserved to get kicked off. But Halcyon's post had already been

revolting enough. He may be popular, but so what?

 

Granted, the world needs extreme extroverts who have a strong sense

of empathy, who need to connect with others. The world needs people

with causes too. Also, being very much a feeler type myself (just not

extroverted), the idea that "feelings" are to be sneered at, and

that "rational" thought means shutting your emotions off completely

comes off to me as deeply offensive and dangerous.

 

That said, being empathetic means putting yourself in a larger

context, remembering that you are just one tiny human being among

billions. It means thinking out your actions out just a bit more. Is

that all so different from, say, not driving drunk with friends in

the car or asking your frinds to fasten their safety belts? If you

care, you'll stop to think and protect. Moreover, loving means

remembering that while you're shouting about how much you love and

care, you may be putting pressure on others who are caring

themselves, but can't and don't want to make a public display of it.

Loving means remembering that others might not care about the same

things or people that you do. Loving means accepting accountability.

Otherwise, you're just a self-indulgent self-promoter.

 

Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he can't

promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds of

others will follow him, that given his personality his words will

have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

thinking -- and that's not really loving.

 

 

446 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:21pm

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...

Send Email

 

Geez you guys.

 

You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah. Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats the important thing. Now let it go.

 

 

- J.R. Salzman

 

 

 

 

----- Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he can't

promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds of

others will follow him, that given his personality his words will

have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

thinking -- and that's not really loving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

447 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:23pm

Subject: Re: my feelings raysmj@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Geez you guys.

>

> You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make

mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.

Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats

the important thing. Now let it go.

>

>

Ahem. My point was that nothing -- absolutely nada -- in Halcyon's

post showed me that he'd learned anything at all.

 

 

448 From: yahoo@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:26pm

Subject: Re: my feelings yahoo@...

Send Email

 

Yeah, but he's STILL making the mistake. Continuing to promote his

radio love-ins, posting his URLs everywhere he can find to post them.

Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.

 

Jeff Clark

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Geez you guys.

>

> You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make

mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.

Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats

the important thing. Now let it go.

>

>

> - J.R. Salzman

>

>

>

>

> ----- Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he

can't

> promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds of

> others will follow him, that given his personality his words will

> have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

> thinking -- and that's not really loving.

 

 

449 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:29pm

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...

Send Email

 

Perhaps if you listened to his radio show from last night, you would know that he has learned from it. The link to listen to it is on my site.

 

J.R. Salzman

www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Geez you guys.

>

> You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make

mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.

Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats

the important thing. Now let it go.

>

>

Ahem. My point was that nothing -- absolutely nada -- in Halcyon's

post showed me that he'd learned anything at all.

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

450 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:34pm

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...

Send Email

 

Hey! I have a great idea! If you don't like what he has to say, don't read it!! Wow! What a concept!!

 

I'm through with this discussion.

 

- J.R. Salzman

 

Yeah, but he's STILL making the mistake. Continuing to promote his

radio love-ins, posting his URLs everywhere he can find to post them.

Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.

 

Jeff Clark

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Geez you guys.

>

> You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make

mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.

Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats

the important thing. Now let it go.

>

>

> - J.R. Salzman

>

>

>

>

> ----- Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he

can't

> promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds of

> others will follow him, that given his personality his words will

> have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

> thinking -- and that's not really loving.

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

451 From: "Jim"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:35pm

Subject: Re: my feelings jim@...

Send Email

 

> Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

> thinking -- and that's not really loving.

 

You're so right there.

 

Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it was

easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. There were few

exceptions.

 

You want to love? Start at home. Spend time with mom, dad, kids. Go

lend the neighbor a hand with the yard work. Give grandma a call.

 

Volunteer at your community hospital or nursing home.

 

I'm not saying that loving 'Kaycee' was worthless or a waste of time.

I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap and

easy.

 

 

452 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:35pm

Subject: Re: my feelings raysmj@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Perhaps if you listened to his radio show from last night, you

would know that he has learned from it. The link to listen to it is

on my site.

>

> J.R. Salzman

> www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp

>

Actually, J.R., you might have told me that in the earlier message,

instead of sounding like you were just shouting down another person

who dared question the good and great Halcyon again (and he may be

great in person, for all I know). I didn't have time to listen to

anyone's radio show last night, and all I had to go on was the

message posted here, which wasn't at all reassuring. The thing's

advertised as a feel-the-love thing, right? To me, that's part of the

problem, as noted in my earlier message.

 

 

453 From: rkailey@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:34pm

Subject: Re: Does Debbie realize rkailey@...

Send Email

 

Being remarkably cynical about such things, it is my belief that

Debbie will write a tell-all book in an effort to "find peace". And

if it makes a buck (or several thousand) who can complain? It is my

personal hope that she is tried and convicted of this hoax as a

crime ... Not because I am vindictive or hurt. "Kaycee Nicole" was

completely unknown to me slightly over a week ago. I want Debbie

convicted because that will legally prohibit her from profitting from

that crime. No sappy "I just needed to feel loved" book. No "I'm so

sorry for those I've wronged" expose. And no "I'll donate .001% of

the proceeds to a good cause". If anybody should write this story

and profit from what has transpired, it should be one (or a group) of

the people on this list and Mefi. So if she spouts off and helps a

case against her, then more power to her.

Wulfgar!

 

 

 

 

-- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:

> I wonder if Debbie realizes that what she is saying to the press

can

> be used against her in the court of law should charges be filed.

Also

> I noticed that Randall is taking time off as well....I think that

it

> is best---I feel so bad that he has been caught up in the center of

> this storm especially considering that he lost his own loved ones

to

> cancer prior to meeting Debbie (KC). I pray that like all of us

> deeply affected that he will one day find the answers but true

peace

> in this matter.

 

 

454 From: jenn@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:43pm

Subject: Re: No villians here jenn@...

Send Email

 

Someone stated that Debbie is not evil, but sick. That is absolutely

the case. She is a classic Munchausen by Internet case.

 

I've read a few comments, speculating on Debbie's personality,

motive, etc. I'm certain that her main intent was not to scam people

out of money, gifts, etc. -- she mainly was after attention.

 

In order for you to have a better understanding of who Debbie is,

here are some articles on Munchausen. Please understand, I am very

sorry for her victims, and do *not* condone or brush off Debbie's

behavior. It is a very serious matter, and she hurt people a great

deal. I hope her or a neighbor sees this and gets her help.

 

*****************************************************************

http://www.shpm.com/articles/chronic/faking.html

 

Quote: Here, people willfully fake or produce illness to command

attention, obtain lenience, act out anger, or control others....I

coined the terms "virtual factitious disorder" (Feldman, Bibby, &

Crites, 1998) and "Munchausen by Internet" (Feldman, 2000) to refer

to people who simplify this "real-life" process by carrying out their

deceptions online. Instead of seeking care at numerous hospitals,

they gain new audiences merely by clicking from one support group to

another. Under the guise of illness, they can also join multiple

groups simultaneously. USING DIFFERENT NAMES AND ACCOUNTS [emphasis

added], they can even sign on to one group as a STRICKEN PATIENT, HIS

FRANTIC MOTHER, and his distraught son all to make the ruse utterly

convincing....

 

WHEN MUNCHAUSEN BY INTERNET SEEMS LIKELY, it is best to have a small

number of established members gently, empathically, and privately

question the author of the dubious posts.

 

*****************************************************************

http://healtheoffice.com/munchausen_by_internet.htm

 

What's interesting in this URL is the description of a community's

reaction to discovering the truth: "While some people are unmoved or

even amused by the audacity of a deception, others are sincerely

hurt. Common reactions include sending angry or sad e-mails to the

deceiver, leaving the group in disgust, splitting the group into

camps of believers and disbelievers, and fearing that the deceiver

will misuse personal information that was volunteered in the past."

 

*****************************************************************

http://www.munchausen.com

 

"People with factitious disorders feign, exaggerate, or actually self-

induce illnesses. Their aim? To assume the status of "patient," and

thereby to win attention, nurturance, and lenience that they feel

unable to obtain in any other way. Unlike individuals who "malinger,"

people with factitious disorders are not primarily seeking external

gains such as disability payments or narcotic drugs--though they may

receive them nonetheless."

 

*****************************************************************

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4097320,00.html

 

"If interest in his case wanes among the other participants, he

simply invents new crises to rekindle it. "

 

*****************************************************************

http://www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artPretender.html

 

A NY Times story about a recovered Munchausen patient.

 

 

455 From: "Louise Butler"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:07pm

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings lou@...

Send Email

 

> Ahem. My point was that nothing -- absolutely nada -- in Halcyon's

> post showed me that he'd learned anything at all.

 

But isn't that his prerogative? If you're worried that he'll promote the

hell out of the next fraud that comes along, then just don't buy into the

promotions ..

 

456 From: saundra@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:25pm

Subject: Satire on Something Awful.Com saundra@...

Send Email

 

I found it amusing, and I thought some of you might too. If you're

still hurting over the hoax- it's not particularly vicious, but you

might not find it funny, so don't visit, okay?

 

http://www.somethingawful.com/

 

Saundra

 

 

457 From: jgrimm@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:29pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff jgrimm@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Matthew Haughey wrote:

> No one would ever think a weblog was fictional until now. They were

> a breath of fresh air for many readers, because they were so

> personal and intimate (but like Rich said, they didn't have to

> get mired in details, so a rouse was possible and also fairly

> easy). Pre-living colours, they were a window into someone's

> daily life and there wasn't a reason to question it, why would

> someone fake the mundane? What purpose would it serve to write

> "I hate my job, today I ate half a bagel and I was stuffed.

> LOL." if none of it were true?

 

Perhaps for the same reason someone would make a sculpture from found

objects, or write a poem in the form of a classified ad, or write a

radio play about the thoughts of a bridge-painter. The "mundane" is

just as rich in emotional content and artistic potential as anything

more contrived -- perhaps it's even more resonant because it's so

_true_. This is the stuff we live every day, after all.

 

For four months this fall and winter, I wrote a story in the form of

a weblog: the real-time daily ranting of a fellow in a bit of a rut,

with nothing much more interesting than Playstation in his life. he

answered email and posted to a message board, and there was even a

crossover into "real" life with a voice mailbox. I was also very

careful to make sure that anyone who interacted with him on anything

substantive knew he was fictonal, but that took active work on my

part. People would stumble across the site, not read the "about"

page, and write him commiserating email. Before he wrote back, I'd

break character to send them a "hey, you know this guy isn't real,

right?" email. Usually, they didn't.

 

Ben's life, I think, was interesting without needing to resort to

space aliens or high drama, which was precisely my point in writing

Lotvs-Eaters.

 

See also

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002GG1

for a year-ago discussion on fictional weblog narrators.

 

James

 

 

458 From: Oliver Willis

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:29pm

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings owillis@...

Send Email

 

I think that's why I never got into the whole Kaycee

"thing". I can get emotionally involved - to a point -

with online folks, but until I actually have met them

in real life it's pretty useless for me to actually

"feel" for them. But that's just me.

 

--- Jim wrote:

> > Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

> > thinking -- and that's not really loving.

>

> You're so right there.

>

> Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing

> because it was

> easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached

> love. There were few

> exceptions.

>

> You want to love? Start at home. Spend time with

> mom, dad, kids. Go

> lend the neighbor a hand with the yard work. Give

> grandma a call.

>

> Volunteer at your community hospital or nursing

> home.

>

> I'm not saying that loving 'Kaycee' was worthless or

> a waste of time.

> I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was

> kinda cheap and

> easy.

>

>

 

 

=====

Oliver Willis

www.oliverwillis.com

owillis@...

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

459 From: jgrimm@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:38pm

Subject: Re: No villians here jgrimm@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:

> I could believe that she didn't fully understand what was going

> on, the power of the internet as a medium, and so forth, except for

> the P.O.Box, the girl on the phone, the photographs, the gifts...

 

There's plenty of precedent for people going to horrifying lengths to

cover up initially-tiny lies. A recent book, _The Adversary_, tells

the true story of a man whose actions make Debbie's look like nothing.

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805065830/o/qid=990729126/sr=8

-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/002-7328489-3773633

 

Amazon's description of the book begins: "Too mortified to admit that

he has missed a crucial medical school exam, Jean-Claude Romand

decides instead to lie. It's the pitiful act of a desperate man that

turns into a full-time charade, and as the lies pile up Romand

manages to convince everyone--his wife, best friend, parents, in-

laws, and mistress--that he is a doctor with the World Health

Organization. When it all starts to unravel some 18 years later,

Romand tries to cover up his deception by killing his family and

making a feeble attempt at killing himself."

 

Evil, sick, weak, or something else entirely? No one can really

tell, but people very frequently dig themselves into incredibly deep

holes and then choose awful ways out of them.

 

James

 

 

460 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:10pm

Subject: Re: my feelings sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Oliver Willis wrote:

> I think that's why I never got into the whole Kaycee

> "thing". I can get emotionally involved - to a point -

> with online folks, but until I actually have met them

> in real life it's pretty useless for me to actually

> "feel" for them. But that's just me.

 

For reasons I've never quite understood, there seems to be a belief

in some quarters that the act of caring about something will result

in tangible effects. I guess if a thousand people sit alone in their

homes and all care in the same way, some mystical psychic force will

manifest and make something happen.

 

I guess it's a new-agey thing. As a mechanist, I don't believe such

things. Thoughts don't accomplish anything directly (except to

consume glucose); it's ACTIONS that count.

 

I wonder if it might be a vestigial form of prayer in people who

think they've become agnostic or atheist.

 

Anyway, I believe that part of what happened here was a whole bunch

of people watching what was going on (almost a living soap opera,

though even more like that than they knew) hoping it would come out

OK, and perhaps on some level expecting that their own caring was

going to affect the result. And indeed, it seemed as if it was going

to; she seemed to have been cured of leukemia. So when the

aneurysm "killed" her, it was a tremendous shock. All their non-

prayers hadn't worked.

 

Which made the shock of finding out that the game had been rigged

doubly bad.

 

 

461 From: "halcyon"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:37pm

Subject: Re: my feelings halcyon@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

> Yeah, but he's STILL making the mistake. Continuing to promote his

> radio love-ins, posting his URLs everywhere he can find to post

them.

> Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.

>

> Jeff Clark

 

*sigh*

 

Yeah, I'm making BANK off this!

Woo-hoo!! Bring me more of that sympathy traffic!

 

In addition to disorientation, I am dealing with guilt feelings

because I got some people into this mess (in terms of linking to

Kaycee and encouraging peopel to read her words). Now I'm trying to

help people work through it as I am working through it. This is far

more than a detective game for me. I have a head full of memories

that never happened. My first choice? If I would have spent the

last 2 years corresponding with a real person who is still alive and

continues to inspire.

 

But that ain't the case.

 

One lesson you can learn form this is "trust less."

Just as many people deal with a broken heart by learning, "guard your

heart."

I completely understand that.

 

But don't think that it's the only lesson to be learned here.

 

-Halcyon

 

 

 

 

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> > Geez you guys.

> >

> > You are chastizing a guy for making a mistake. People make

> mistakes. Its natural. Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah.

> Thought so. Has everyone learned from these mistakes? Yes. Thats

> the important thing. Now let it go.

> >

> >

> > - J.R. Salzman

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ----- Halcyon's post said, oh, come along for the ride, but he

> can't

> > promise you that you won't get hurt. But he knows that hundreds

of

> > others will follow him, that given his personality his words will

> > have a big impact. Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

> > thinking -- and that's not really loving.

 

 

462 From: "halcyon"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:40pm

Subject: Re: my feelings halcyon@...

Send Email

 

"loving without thinking" isn't loving!?!

 

Wow. We love very differently.

 

-Halcyon

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jim" wrote:

> > Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

> > thinking -- and that's not really loving.

>

> You're so right there.

>

> Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it was

> easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. There were

few

> exceptions.

>

> You want to love? Start at home. Spend time with mom, dad, kids. Go

> lend the neighbor a hand with the yard work. Give grandma a call.

>

> Volunteer at your community hospital or nursing home.

>

> I'm not saying that loving 'Kaycee' was worthless or a waste of

time.

> I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap and

> easy.

 

 

463 From: misssassy_pants@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:47pm

Subject: Re: my feelings misssassy_pants@...

Send Email

 

> I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap

>and easy.

 

"cheap and easy" implies empty, which it certainly doesn't seem

to have been for halcyon; who cares if it was from a computer

screen? give him a break.

 

 

464 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:56pm

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...

Send Email

 

Need I remind you that it wasn't a computer screen these people were caring about? These people talked to her on the phone all the time. They exchanged gifts. They worked together over the internet. They exchanged pictures. This wasn't one computer screen talking to another. If you want a good idea of what went on between them, listen to Halcyons Feel the Love Show. The archive link is on my site.

 

www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp

 

- J.R. Salzman

----- Original Message -----

From: misssassy_pants@yahoo.com

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 2:47 PM

Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: my feelings

 

 

> I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap

>and easy.

 

"cheap and easy" implies empty, which it certainly doesn't seem

to have been for halcyon; who cares if it was from a computer

screen? give him a break.

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

465 From: "elizAbeth"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:00pm

Subject: Re: my feelings amazingjettgrrrl@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

> Yeah, but he's STILL making the mistake. Continuing to promote his

> radio love-ins, posting his URLs everywhere he can find to post

them.

> Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.

>

> Jeff Clark

 

 

"Hey, that name's familiar," I thought. I re-ran your name through my

brain. I must admit, I was surprised to see you sporting this

opinion...

 

Surprised, but not negatively so.

 

Welcome to the 'dark side', Brother Jeff. Or to what is commonly

misconstrued as the dark side, anyway.

 

I worry and wonder about those people who proclaim to have no anger

reaction. This, in the course of things, is NOT normal. It makes me

wonder about how human these folks actually are. This may sound

somewhat ignorant and neanderthal to all reading, but the message

of 'absolute love, absolutely' unnerves and frightens me.

 

I did not know the Kaycee construct as well as some others, so

perhaps that is why my grief mutated to anger more rapidly. And I

continue to be angry, because this unabashed liar's story keeps

changing directions and forms, because she has left so many people

swinging in the wind. And I am not talking about the 'participants'

at this point...I am referring to people like Saundra Mitchell (who

was not misled by Debbie, necessarily, but by the resultant 'big

media' first involvement) and Julie Fullbright (and why the hell is

she not outraged?? you can be successfully angry and graceful at the

same time!) and Debbie's own family. She has effectively torn the

world of her children asunder. I cannot imagine the trauma in that

home as I type this.....

 

*sigh* I don't proclaim to know any easy answers. Nor do I expect

people to subscribe to my own practices/way of thingking. It is just

a relief to know that I am not in the absolute minority here.

 

 

466 From: acridrabbit@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:00pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff acridrabbit@...

Send Email

 

James wrote:

 

> For four months this fall and winter, I wrote a story in the form

of a weblog:

>I was also very careful to make sure that anyone who interacted

with him on anything

> substantive knew he was fictonal, but that took active work on my

> part. People would stumble across the site, not read the "about"

> page, and write him commiserating email.

 

Are you talking about http://www.vlysses.com/? Because the "about

me" and "start here" pages, where most new visitors would go, say

nothing about fiction. That is stated on the "credits" page, and

people don't usually look there unless they're interested in the

technical details (most credits pages on most personal sites list the

hardware & software used, which a lot of readers don't care about).

 

I'm only saying this to point out that there are probably plenty of

people who thought it was completely real, true, factual, actual

stuff.

 

I have no problem with fiction, I just like to know it is fiction

when it is.

 

 

467 From: "Jon Sullivan"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:08pm

Subject: Re: my feelings jon@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "halcyon" wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

>>

>> Doesn't sound to me like someone who is learning a lesson.

 

> One lesson you can learn form this is "trust less."

 

Unconditional love is very alien for most people. I've met other

people besides Halcyon who live their lives with this philosophy.

Growing up in the sixties I saw it all the time.

 

But Halcyon is one the rare adherents who can actually walk the walk.

He isn't spouting off about love and then being petty when he's out

of the spot light. And unlike Kaycee, lots of people know, party,

hang out, live, etc. with John.

 

He's the real deal.

 

Expecting him to stop preaching his philosophy is just silly. Clearly

some people are going to disagree. Some people are going to think

it's fake. Some people are more comfortable in a world which is cold,

hard, and mean.

 

sigh This is actually the view I have of the world. I'm more

comfortable as a cynic. There is no way I could go through life

giving unconditional love.

 

But I'm glad there are people out there who can.

 

John Sullivan

http://www.jonsullivan.com/

 

 

468 From: jgrimm@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:59pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff jgrimm@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., acridrabbit@g... wrote:

 

> Are you talking about http://www.vlysses.com/? Because the "about

> me" and "start here" pages, where most new visitors would go, say

> nothing about fiction. That is stated on the "credits" page, and

> people don't usually look there unless they're interested in the

> technical details (most credits pages on most personal sites list

the

> hardware & software used, which a lot of readers don't care about).

 

Yes, that's it. I only sent out announcements that called it

fiction, and I only promoted it as such. More relevantly, it used to

be a little more apparent what was going on. When Organizine went

bye-bye, I had to bail the content, and the design-usability suffered

some as a result.

 

James

 

 

469 From: "Debbie"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:13pm

Subject: very interesting information centrsgrrl@...

Send Email

 

i just got a letter in the snail mail from the pastor, obviously sent

before the whole julie thing broke.

 

he called her sunday night and debbie told him that "kaycee"

perpetrated the hoax, that she unwittingly participated in the hoax

by letting "kaycee" use her p.o. box. she said the person DID die on

monday the 14th of cancer. she was really sorry for her involvement.

she was duped into participating by trying to be a good neighbor.

 

totally lying.

 

of course, debbie didn't know that she was about to be busted on the

whole julie thing and of course now the pastor knows the truth as it

has been all over the local news and papers.

 

 

470 From: "Louise Butler"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:15pm

Subject: Re: very interesting information lou@...

Send Email

 

THATS an interesting turn of things! God, she couldn't just cut her losses

and be like, "I'm a lyin' fool!"

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Debbie

To:

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 2:13 PM

Subject: kaycee-nicole very interesting information

 

 

> i just got a letter in the snail mail from the pastor, obviously sent

> before the whole julie thing broke.

>

> he called her sunday night and debbie told him that "kaycee"

> perpetrated the hoax, that she unwittingly participated in the hoax

> by letting "kaycee" use her p.o. box. she said the person DID die on

> monday the 14th of cancer. she was really sorry for her involvement.

> she was duped into participating by trying to be a good neighbor.

>

> totally lying.

>

> of course, debbie didn't know that she was about to be busted on the

> whole julie thing and of course now the pastor knows the truth as it

> has been all over the local news and papers.

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>

>

 

 

471 From: "Jim"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:23pm

Subject: Re: my feelings jim@...

Send Email

 

Halcyon -

 

(btw, thank you for allowing me, bumbling idiot that I was, on your

show last night)

 

I tried to use the "loving without thinking" thread to segue into

a "love" of case, for most of us, was an easy love. A love without

commitment. A love without teeth. A love without works.

 

Too many of us (hell, me included) spend too much time in front of

our computers interacting with cyber-people. And sometimes, maybe

lots of times, it's at the expense of the meat-people.

 

And I don't want to denigrate the love that we have shared

through "Kaycee". Certainly you and bwg invested the most ... and

perhaps the most tangible love.

 

Forgive me if I insulted you and/or your feelings. Not my intent.

 

Jim

JimFormation.com

 

> "loving without thinking" isn't loving!?!

>

> Wow. We love very differently.

>

> -Halcyon

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jim" wrote:

> > > Even so, he's going to keep "loving" without

> > > thinking -- and that's not really loving.

> >

> > You're so right there.

> >

> > Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it

was

> > easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. There were

> few

> > exceptions.

> >

> > You want to love? Start at home. Spend time with mom, dad, kids.

Go

> > lend the neighbor a hand with the yard work. Give grandma a call.

> >

> > Volunteer at your community hospital or nursing home.

> >

> > I'm not saying that loving 'Kaycee' was worthless or a waste of

> time.

> > I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap and

> > easy.

 

 

472 From: dhartung@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:26pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., acridrabbit@g... wrote:

> James wrote:

> > For four months this fall and winter, I wrote a story in the form

> of a weblog:

>

> > I was also very careful to make sure that anyone who interacted

> > with him on anything

> > substantive knew he was fictonal, but that took active work on my

> > part. People would stumble across the site, not read the "about"

> > page, and write him commiserating email.

>

> Are you talking about http://www.vlysses.com/? Because the "about

> me" and "start here" pages, where most new visitors would go, say

> nothing about fiction. That is stated on the "credits" page, and

> people don't usually look there unless they're interested in the

> technical details (most credits pages on most personal sites list

the

> hardware & software used, which a lot of readers don't care about).

>

> I'm only saying this to point out that there are probably plenty of

> people who thought it was completely real, true, factual, actual

> stuff.

>

> I have no problem with fiction, I just like to know it is fiction

> when it is.

 

Here's the thing. Some people are saying, what was the big deal? It

was just a weblog, just words on a page. If that's all it had been,

there would be much less of this group-angst.

 

(For examples, see Snoop Doggy Blog,

http://www.neoflux.com/celeblogs/snoopdog/

or Slutblog.

http://www.geocities.com/slutblog

or that satirical Brad Pitt diary that was taken down.)

 

Instead, it was much more: it was a person who worked with others on

projects, who e-mailed, who talked to them on the phone.

 

I believe there's a huge difference between putting something

fictional on the web for it to be found, and actually lying to

someone "in person", on the telephone. I think most would say the

same thing. For most webloggers, and here's a key point, the weblog

IS their voice, the equivalent of them talking to friends. I feel

that way writing mine. Some people create an artificial border

between technology that we're all used to, like the phone, and

technology that most of us are still getting used to, like the

internet, but I'm not sure there's that much of a qualitative

difference, when you get down to basics. Nevertheless, there you have

it: you hear someone's voice, you expect them to be at least telling

you who they are, even if it's a white lie like "Let's do lunch."

Maybe it's just because disguising a voice is that much harder.

 

If I ran a satirical or deliberately fictional blog, which I don't,

but don't consider beyond the pale, I certainly wouldn't go quite so

far as to treat people like toys or funny-looking moving-pixels in

the shape of letters (hey, look! I say X, and they fill up my screen!

it's fun!). They're still people. If someone were to interact with

that fictional blog, I don't see how I could uphold the fiction in

the e-mail persona. (Now we're hitting AOLiza territory, though...)

Even that, and Debbie went farther, with the phone calls, the

gifts ... there are serious ethical lines that were crossed far and

above just writing a fictional persona's story on the web.

 

 

473 From: "Jim"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:26pm

Subject: Re: my feelings jim@...

Send Email

 

No one has been more vocal defending John and bwg than myself.

 

And read my entire post:

 

"Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it was

easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. *There were

few exceptions*."

 

Halcyon and bwg are certainly exceptions.

 

Jim

JimFormation.com

 

 

> > I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap

> >and easy.

>

> "cheap and easy" implies empty, which it certainly doesn't seem

> to have been for halcyon; who cares if it was from a computer

> screen? give him a break.

 

 

474 From: "Jim"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:29pm

Subject: Re: my feelings jim@...

Send Email

 

See my previous reply ... and attempt to read my entire post.

 

I said:

 

Many of us were emotionally wrapped up in this thing because it was

easy. It was an easy love. A no strings attached love. *There were

few exceptions.*

 

Thousands, me included (and I talked to "Kaycee/Debbie" via AIM many

times), put our toes in the water.

 

John "Halcyon" Styn and Randy van der Woning jumped into the pool.

 

Few of us are in John or Randy's shoes.

 

Now go call your mom. :)

 

Jim

JimFormation.com

 

 

> Need I remind you that it wasn't a computer screen these people

were caring about? These people talked to her on the phone all the

time. They exchanged gifts. They worked together over the internet.

They exchanged pictures. This wasn't one computer screen talking to

another. If you want a good idea of what went on between them,

listen to Halcyons Feel the Love Show. The archive link is on my

site.

>

> www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp

>

> - J.R. Salzman

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: misssassy_pants@y...

> To: kaycee-nicole@y...

> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 2:47 PM

> Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: my feelings

>

>

> > I'm saying that, from our computer screen, it was kinda cheap

> >and easy.

>

> "cheap and easy" implies empty, which it certainly doesn't seem

> to have been for halcyon; who cares if it was from a computer

> screen? give him a break.

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

>

> www.

>

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@y...

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

 

 

475 From: dhartung@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:29pm

Subject: Re: my feelings dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jon Sullivan" wrote:

> Unconditional love is very alien for most people. I've met other

> people besides Halcyon who live their lives with this philosophy.

[snip....]

> I'm more

> comfortable as a cynic. There is no way I could go through life

> giving unconditional love.

>

> But I'm glad there are people out there who can.

 

Amen to that.

 

I don't think we all need to conduct our lives with the goal of

avoiding getting hurt. That's probably more hurtful in the long run.

 

Like the quote on my weblog: Wipe out. Look stupid. Try again.

 

Life's too damn short to hide in a hole.

 

In my own experience, I'm finding the hardest thing to do is to

extend my boundaries, to reach out, to take chances. The last thing I

need is more caution. Thoreau was right, in that most of us live

lives of quiet desperation. The real tragedy is that we accept it.

 

 

476 From: misssassy_pants@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:37pm

Subject: Re: my feelings misssassy_pants@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Need I remind you that it wasn't a computer screen these

people were caring about? These people talked to her on the

phone all the time. They exchanged gifts. They worked together

over the internet. They exchanged pictures. This wasn't one

computer screen talking to another. If you want a good idea of

what went on between them, listen to Halcyons Feel the Love

Show. The archive link is on my site.

>

> www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp

>

 

no, you needn't remind me, but perhaps others who are viciously

attacking halcyon for "falling for" the kaycee thing. i was merely

using an exact phrase "computer screen" from the post i replied

to to make my point. i fully understand that it was more human

and intimate than that; i'm not the one who said "computer

screen."

 

 

477 From: jgrimm@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 10:58pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff jgrimm@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:

> If I ran a satirical or deliberately fictional blog, which I don't,

> but don't consider beyond the pale, I certainly wouldn't go quite

> so far as to treat people like toys or funny-looking moving-pixels

> in the shape of letters (hey, look! I say X, and they fill up my

> screen! it's fun!). They're still people.

 

If all one wanted were that sort of call-and-response action, playing

text adventures and trolling Slashdot would suffice. That the people

on the other end _are_ people might also be a motivation, and not

just in the conceptual-artist sort of way, either. Even better than

calling spirits from the vasty deep is calling forth real people.

People who care about you, who respond to your tears, who believe in

you -- or rather, believe in the falsehood you've created in order to

get them to care.

 

Which is, in its way, far, far worse than just treating them like

toys, because it's people's genuine responses that're being

misappropriated, not just the funny-looking pixels those responses

create.

 

James

 

 

478 From: dhartung@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 11:59pm

Subject: Re: Of weblogs and other stuff dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jgrimm@l... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:

> > If I ran a satirical or deliberately fictional blog, which I

don't,

> > but don't consider beyond the pale, I certainly wouldn't go quite

> > so far as to treat people like toys or funny-looking moving-pixels

> > in the shape of letters (hey, look! I say X, and they fill up my

> > screen! it's fun!). They're still people.

>

> If all one wanted were that sort of call-and-response action,

playing

> text adventures and trolling Slashdot would suffice. That the

people

> on the other end _are_ people might also be a motivation, and not

> just in the conceptual-artist sort of way, either. Even better

than

> calling spirits from the vasty deep is calling forth real people.

> People who care about you, who respond to your tears, who believe

in

> you -- or rather, believe in the falsehood you've created in order

to

> get them to care.

>

> Which is, in its way, far, far worse than just treating them like

> toys, because it's people's genuine responses that're being

> misappropriated, not just the funny-looking pixels those responses

> create.

 

I believe you and I agree here, it's just a means-vs.-ends thing.

Despite intent (or utter slow-motion-crash lack of intent), the end

result was that people were treated like toys.

 

I seem to recall a longish speech from Guaré's _Six Degrees of

Separation_ along those lines. In that situation, everyone believed

that "Paul" was Sidney Poitier's son because it filled some need or

hole in their own life, their own self-conception. It was easy for

Paul to perpetuate the fraud because everyone unintentionally helped

it along.

 

http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxi/4.26.96/arts/six.html

 

Hmm, this isn't the one on my mind, but it touches on several of the

pertinent issues:

http://www.whysanity.net/monos/sdop.html

(and it seems to be widely quoted around)

 

I think that Donald Sutherland (in the movie) had the one I'm

thinking of, but it's been a long time.

 

 

479 From: jadeodowd@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:45am

Subject: (No subject) jadeodowd@...

Send Email

 

My younger brother is real. And he has leukemia. And he was a

friend of this fictional girl. He is in the hospital, where he was

when I learned that Kaycee had died. I felt so bad that I had to tell

him that she had died while he was receiving a dose of Taxol.

Then a few days later I find out that she never existed. Not only

do I have to tell him that his friend DIED, but she was never there

to start with? I could see the middle school girl wanting a sister. I

want a sister. And it's normal for kids to make imaginary friends.

But when the mother found the sites, she should have taken this

down and left it at that. Let Kaycee to die then, when not so many

people had met her. But why did she feel that she needed an

imaginary daughter? And that disease.... That was terrible for her

to mock something like that.

Point in close: My 17 year old brother does not know about this

hoax, because he REALLY is in the hospital over this. He is due

home tomorrow. I want all the hate mail that he is fake to stop. I

kind of wish he were faking this, or that he was a fictional

character. That way, he could end the disease at any time, and

there would be no suffering period. But he isn't, and we can't just

end this. It saddens me that people are doubting him now

because of an obviously mentally ill woman, who is probably a

lesbian lusting over that teenage girl. And since her daughter

started it, she is also probably a lesbian.

 

Jade

 

 

480 From: "Jess Cook"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:04am

Subject: RE: (unknown) jess@...

Send Email

 

Lesbians -- I knew it was all their fault!

 

Seriously, Jade, while I am extremely sorry to hear about both your

brother's ill health and the pain that this Kaycee hoax has caused you and

your family, I'd ask that everyone try to avoid jumping to unfounded (and

potentially offensive) conclusions. This has been a difficult week for all

(some more than others, obviously), but if anything we need to try not to

turn on each other here and in other (online and real life) forums.

 

Jess.

pocketgeek.com/pith

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: jadeodowd@... [mailto:jadeodowd@...]

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:46 PM

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Subject: kaycee-nicole (unknown)

 

 

My younger brother is real. And he has leukemia. And he was a

friend of this fictional girl. He is in the hospital, where he was

when I learned that Kaycee had died. I felt so bad that I had to tell

him that she had died while he was receiving a dose of Taxol.

Then a few days later I find out that she never existed. Not only

do I have to tell him that his friend DIED, but she was never there

to start with? I could see the middle school girl wanting a sister. I

want a sister. And it's normal for kids to make imaginary friends.

But when the mother found the sites, she should have taken this

down and left it at that. Let Kaycee to die then, when not so many

people had met her. But why did she feel that she needed an

imaginary daughter? And that disease.... That was terrible for her

to mock something like that.

Point in close: My 17 year old brother does not know about this

hoax, because he REALLY is in the hospital over this. He is due

home tomorrow. I want all the hate mail that he is fake to stop. I

kind of wish he were faking this, or that he was a fictional

character. That way, he could end the disease at any time, and

there would be no suffering period. But he isn't, and we can't just

end this. It saddens me that people are doubting him now

because of an obviously mentally ill woman, who is probably a

lesbian lusting over that teenage girl. And since her daughter

started it, she is also probably a lesbian.

 

Jade

 

 

481 From: jadeodowd@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:39am

Subject: (No subject) jadeodowd@...

Send Email

 

I didn't mean that they were, but that seems like one. Didn't

mean to offend anyone. But just think about this for a minute,

what if you were Julie Fullbright? Wouldn't this sort of thing creep

you out? This is why I never give out pics on line, or anything.

Anyone could turn around and say that they were me. I try not to

post pictures of myself anywhere either. I don't want my idenity

stolen, and I thought of this before Julie's was. You never know

who's on the other end of the connection. I've gone to friends'

houses and signed on their screen names, and people have

thought that I was them. I told these people that I wasn't who they

thought I was. I know I'd hate for someone to be out there

pretending to be me.

 

 

482 From: "Reverend Quonsar The Magnificent"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:44am

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee quonsar@...

Send Email

 

> The most interesting thing to me is that this small town paper's

> report is a magnitude better in terms of writing and accuracy than

> the MSNBC story.

>

> Adam

 

Yah, but he's a small town rookie. Give him time. The industry will

soon mold him into yet another fine example of modern journalist.

 

:-)

 

 

483 From: "brooke"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 2:43am

Subject: (No subject) brooke@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:

> I didn't mean that they were offensive, but that seems like one.

 

a little offensive.. accusing someone like debbie of being a lesbian

because she is so interested in this julie woman????? do you know

any lesbians?? do you know any gay people?? do you know how

ridiculous the ole pedophile thing is?? do you know that the vast

majority of pedophiles are heterosexual men??? and that a lot of

those are married heterosexual men.

 

i suggest you get some lesbian friends. i suggest you get to know

us. do you know how many of us are teachers? do you know how many

of us are mothers? do you know how ignorant your statement was?? do

you understand that if you said something racist, that you'd be

hearing it from more than just me.. it would have been UNACCEPTABLE..

 

i can't tell you how upset i am right now. i am more angry about the

ignorance that was shown on this board than i have EVER been over

what debbie did to people i care about. you have gone right to MY

heart, and maybe others too.. right to the part that has to

constantly be on the defense.. the part thats a little sensitive

because of the current homophobic state of affairs in this country.

 

i hope you learn something from what i've said. i hope you learn how

much words like what you wrote hurt. they hurt probably more than

you'll ever imagine. more hurt than debbie could ever inflict on me.

 

-brooke.. the radical lesbian feminist from oregon.

 

 

484 From: "Reverend Quonsar The Magnificent"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:00am

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story quonsar@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Tara" wrote:

> anyone feel like making a list and protesting?

> ; )

> Tara

 

Heh. Wanna buy a windmill? Great for tilting at. :-)

 

 

486 From: jadeodowd@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:30am

Subject: (No subject) jadeodowd@...

Send Email

 

Since when did this come from picking me apart? Guess certain

people think it's okay to steal an identity. And I know pleanty of

gays.... Let's see, I was raised by a drag queen for the first 5

years of my life, so I guess that counts huh? I was making a

statement that it LOOKED like they were over-obsessed with that

girl, and I came to that conclusion from a statement that Julie's

mom made or was at least put on a site.

 

Can we stick to the subject here? Or should I get my arch enemy

to start a "We Hate Jade O'Dowd" club or group on here?

 

Jade

 

487 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:34am

Subject: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? bonni@...

Send Email

 

I got an email from Rick Hattersley, the writer with the Peabody

Gazette. He's looking for people who actually sent things

to "Kaycee". I pointed him in the direction of an artist I know who

not only donated a piece of artwork but also lowered the prices on

all variations of that work in memory of Kaycee, because I know about

that firsthand.

 

I advised him to ask here, actually. I'm not comforatable giving out

his personal email address (that just seems like a bit of an invasion

of privacy to me), but the address for the overall newspaper is

published and its: gazette@...

 

I'm sure if you wrote to that with a note that it's intended for Rick

Hattersley it would reach him.

 

bonni

http://bonni.net/

 

 

488 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:39am

Subject: (No subject) dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:

> Can we stick to the subject here? Or should I get my arch enemy

> to start a "We Hate Jade O'Dowd" club or group on here?

 

Don't be distracted by molotov-cocktail throwers.

 

 

489 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:41am

Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:

> I got an email from Rick Hattersley, the writer with the Peabody

> Gazette. He's looking for people who actually sent things

> to "Kaycee".

 

A good place to start is the poll:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/surveys?id=10048960

 

It does seem as though there was more talk about gifts than people

willing to own up to actually sending them. But that's common in

fraud cases, too.

 

 

490 From: "Lisa"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:46am

Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? lisawhirrett@...

Send Email

 

Bonni, I received that same email but not sure what to do about it.

Anyone else feeling a general mistrust of reporters with all the

inaccuracies in the press so far? I'd feel better if it were the

police asking. I mean, what's a reporter going to do with that

information?

 

lisa

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:

> I got an email from Rick Hattersley, the writer with the Peabody

> Gazette. He's looking for people who actually sent things

> to "Kaycee". I pointed him in the direction of an artist I know who

> not only donated a piece of artwork but also lowered the prices on

> all variations of that work in memory of Kaycee, because I know

about

> that firsthand.

>

> I advised him to ask here, actually. I'm not comforatable giving

out

> his personal email address (that just seems like a bit of an

invasion

> of privacy to me), but the address for the overall newspaper is

> published and its: gazette@p...

>

> I'm sure if you wrote to that with a note that it's intended for

Rick

> Hattersley it would reach him.

>

> bonni

> http://bonni.net/

 

 

491 From: Matthew Haughey

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:49am

Subject: Re: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? matt@...

Send Email

 

On 03:41 AM 5/25/2001 +0000, dhartung@... wrote:

>A good place to start is the poll:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/surveys?id=10048960

>

>It does seem as though there was more talk about gifts than people

>willing to own up to actually sending them. But that's common in

>fraud cases, too.

 

No offense Dan because you didn't program Yahoo's poll system, but it'd be

nice if the poll were anonymous publicly, so people wouldn't have to

advertise their embarrassment.

 

Matt

 

 

492 From: saundra@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:53am

Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? saundra@...

Send Email

 

I certainly can't tell you guys how to decide, but I can tell you that

Rick Hattersley is the nicest out of all the reporters who contacted

me. He did his best to go over all the information, and when there was

a mistake in the article he was happy to change it as quickly as he

could. All the reporters have been interested in the fraud angle, he

probably wants the information to do a follow-up story, though I can't

say for sure. He's nice, you could probably ask him and then decide.

:)

 

Saundra

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lisa" wrote:

> Bonni, I received that same email but not sure what to do about it.

 

> Anyone else feeling a general mistrust of reporters with all the

> inaccuracies in the press so far? I'd feel better if it were the

> police asking. I mean, what's a reporter going to do with that

> information?

>

> lisa

>

 

 

493 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:49am

Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? bonni@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"

wrote:

> > I got an email from Rick Hattersley, the writer with the Peabody

> > Gazette. He's looking for people who actually sent things

> > to "Kaycee".

>

> A good place to start is the poll:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/surveys?id=10048960

>

> It does seem as though there was more talk about gifts than people

> willing to own up to actually sending them. But that's common in

> fraud cases, too.

 

I forwarded that information to Rick to investigate as he wishes.

Thanks.

 

bonni

http://bonni.net/

 

 

494 From: jadeodowd@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:55am

Subject: What About Cards, Letters, etc Mailed From This Kaycee Person? jadeodowd@...

Send Email

 

Thanks dhart.

I'd like to say that this has effected me more than I believe that it

will my brother-- I was the one that introduced him to that person

Debbie/Kaycee/Kelli/whoever. Think that makes me feel smart in

that category? Usually, when I'm not thinking clearly because

something like this makes me so mad. -I actually cried over a

fictional character?- I say retarded things. I don't hate anyone,

but I'd like to tell Debbie that her plan was sick, and I know that a

lot of people agree with me on that. Who here wasn't affected by

it? Anyway, all that was sent to Kaycee from me was email. My

brother got a birthday card from Kaycee. What should we do with

that? Any ideas? Is there a cop that collecting stuff sent by

Kaycee?

 

 

495 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:05am

Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Matthew Haughey wrote:

> On 03:41 AM 5/25/2001 +0000, dhartung@s... wrote:

> >A good place to start is the poll:

> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/surveys?id=10048960

> >

> >It does seem as though there was more talk about gifts than people

> >willing to own up to actually sending them. But that's common in

> >fraud cases, too.

>

> No offense Dan because you didn't program Yahoo's poll system, but

it'd be

> nice if the poll were anonymous publicly, so people wouldn't have

to

> advertise their embarrassment.

 

I can't remember who I discussed this with now, but s/he and I agreed

that public would be best so it wouldn't be spammable.

 

It was mainly intended to establish whether any of the gift-giving

that was talked up was real. Since I don't feel this forum is

representative of the people that "knew" her before the brouhaha,

maybe more composed of MeFians and others, I don't feel the poll

would be reliable otherwise.

 

My thanks to those who did answer.

 

 

496 From: kafeiaries@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:11am

Subject: How Many More Frauds Are Out There? kafeiaries@...

Send Email

 

am i the only one here that wonders about all the other frauds

out there? this isn't the only one, it's just the only one that's

gotten caught recently.

this so called girl, i talked with her in chat a few times, and her

stories didn't always match the ones that were in the diaries.

well, you know what they say.... "the truth is easier to remember

than a lie".

of course, there are real people out there that are really sick. i've

had one person to go so far as to say that everyone on the web

that claims to have leukemia is faking. that isn't true. i really had

kidney failure, but just because i didn't post daily "please feel

sorry for me" blogs doesn't mean that i was faking.

 

 

497 From: "brooke"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:22am

Subject: (No subject) brooke@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:

> > Can we stick to the subject here? Or should I get my arch enemy

> > to start a "We Hate Jade O'Dowd" club or group on here?

>

> Don't be distracted by molotov-cocktail throwers.

 

umm.. yeah, dig-it. i was supposed to sit back and say nothing

about it, eh? oh yeah.. wait.. its still okay to be homophobic in

this country.. not okay to call someone on it. *note to self* don't

forget, homophobic remarks are acceptable.. never say anything.

don't stand up when something is wrong..

 

not apologetic for the off-topicness of the post.

 

-brooke.

 

 

498 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:28am

Subject: OT: meta dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "brooke" wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:

> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:

> > > Can we stick to the subject here? Or should I get my arch enemy

> > > to start a "We Hate Jade O'Dowd" club or group on here?

> >

> > Don't be distracted by molotov-cocktail throwers.

>

> umm.. yeah, dig-it. i was supposed to sit back and say nothing

> about it, eh? oh yeah.. wait.. its still okay to be homophobic in

> this country.. not okay to call someone on it. *note to self*

don't

> forget, homophobic remarks are acceptable.. never say anything.

> don't stand up when something is wrong..

 

I'm just saying, as somebody who's been online in one form or another

since 1982 (!), the best defense against a disruptive troll is to

ignore it. I deleted the message, so only the few who get this via e-

mail or check frequently would have seen it.

 

This person was just trying to get people's goat with an offensive

remark. Obviously, with you, he succeeded.

 

> not apologetic for the off-topicness of the post.

 

Then please find some other forum to argue about homophobia. I'm

trying to keep flamewars out of this group for the benefit of

everyone.

 

 

499 From: "Curt"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:42am

Subject: Re: What About Cards, Letters, etc Mailed From This Kaycee Person? falceon@...

Send Email

 

jade, maybe you need to chill out with your comments. The leasbian

and "I say retarded things" comments are just not very cool. At all.

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:

> Thanks dhart.

> I'd like to say that this has effected me more than I believe that

it

> will my brother-- I was the one that introduced him to that person

> Debbie/Kaycee/Kelli/whoever. Think that makes me feel smart in

> that category? Usually, when I'm not thinking clearly because

> something like this makes me so mad. -I actually cried over a

> fictional character?- I say retarded things. I don't hate anyone,

> but I'd like to tell Debbie that her plan was sick, and I know that

a

> lot of people agree with me on that. Who here wasn't affected by

> it? Anyway, all that was sent to Kaycee from me was email. My

> brother got a birthday card from Kaycee. What should we do with

> that? Any ideas? Is there a cop that collecting stuff sent by

> Kaycee?

 

 

500 From: kafeiaries@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:03am

Subject: (No subject) kafeiaries@...

Send Email

 

is the guy from the peabody gazette the only reporter that's

emailing people?

 

 

501 From: David Moisan

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:39am

Subject: Putting Kaycee on a pedestal dmoisan@...

Send Email

 

I'm new to this scandal and have only looked at the MeFi discussions and

some of the weblogs mentioned, but one thing has *really* bothered me about

this affair, even more so than the obvious deception.

 

So many people, upon learning that Kaycee (the persona) had cancer, seemed

very quick to put her on a pedestal, glorifying her "struggle" and admiring

her "courage".

 

This isn't a new thing. People did this to Craig Shergold, Christopher

Reeves, Travis Roy and a host of others. Namely, every public persona with

a visible disability is romanticized and glorified. Sometimes, this

resembles a disease-of-the-week TV movie as the people who suffer the "in"

disease (last week, AIDS, this week, breast cancer) are elevated to glory

as publicity insists.

 

Six years ago, I started a website that intended to be the antithesis of

this philosophy, The Invisible Disabilty Page (URL is in the sig). I have

multiple disabilities, none of them visible, I needed support and no one

else (in 1995) was out there; without going into personal detail, I ran

into the dark side of glorifying "visible" disability--if you don't have a

"visible" disability, you often don't get help.

 

I run a discussion list associated with the site and when I heard of the

Kaycee scandal, I had two thoughts. The first one: Do I have any Kaycees

on my list? Most of you may be wondering the same.

 

I'm not a doctor, and deliberately say so in the list rules. Because so

many of the members of my list have problems with acceptance (from ignorant

people who often "means-test" them on the spot in public, "You're not

*really* disabled!"), I don't try to verify people's circumstances (as if!)

It's always possible I have a few members with Munchhausen's but I believe

this to be rare and don't expect more than a few such people in the

lifetime of my list.

 

(Thanks to whoever posted the Munchhausen's links, they're excellent and I

will add them to my own site.)

 

No money has ever changed hands on the list that I know of. The stakes

have never yet gotten so high that another Kaycee could happen. (crossed

fingers.) My list is like many other lists, though it is quieter with a

little higher signal-to-noise ratio. Most people know what they're doing

when they find my site.

 

I think my list will be OK despite this, so long as I run it as well as I

have. But the second thing that disturbs me much more, is the "role model"

that Debbie presented with the Kaycee persona.

 

In the two years that Kaycee "lived", how many people have been diagnosed

with any form of cancer, or have gotten a disability through illness or

accident. How many were around Kaycees' age or younger?

 

Imagine being diagnosed with an illness or having a new disability. You

have many emotions going through your head. You're terrified. You're

angry. You're sad. You're resentful. You're trying to deny it and put up

on a brave face. All this and more than I can even put in words.

 

In comes Kaycee. You think, "I'm not handling it as well as Kaycee. I

should be thankful for life. I should be brave!" Worse yet, your friends

feel the same way. Maybe a few of your acquaintances wonder why you don't

want to let go of "the cancer thing" or the "illness thing".

 

This is very unfair. But it's very common for people with illnesses or

disabilities to be treated this way. Most people see TV movies about

disabilities and figure you can "overcome" your condition with "happy

thoughts". But Travis Roy, the famous paralyzed BU hockey player, had to

sue his insurance company over home care that he *needed* to stay out of a

nursing home! *That* is reality for most people with illnesses or

disabilities.

 

Now knowing that Kaycee wasn't real, it's even worse. If you get cancer,

you may be judged by how "good" you are compared with Kaycee. Real life is

*never* that neat. (I know whereof I speak: My late mom suffered and

eventually died of complications from colon cancer.)

 

I could make a very good case that the Kaycee persona was in deep denial of

her condition (did she ever talk about wills or do-not-resuscitate orders?)

This is *not* healthy.

 

Some people say that Kaycee taught valuable lessons, even if she wasn't

real. I agree. But I find much less comfort in the lessons *I* have

learned from this.

 

Take care,

 

Dave

 

David Moisan, N1KGH ARES/SKYWARN dmoisan@...

Invisible Disability:

http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/invisible_disability.html

ATS-909 FAQ: http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/faqs/sangean/ats909faq.html

 

 

502 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:55am

Subject: Re: How Many More Frauds Are Out There? bonni@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., kafeiaries@n... wrote:

> am i the only one here that wonders about all the other frauds

> out there? this isn't the only one, it's just the only one that's

> gotten caught recently.

 

It happens all the time. I could tell you stories from my eight or so

years on the net about men impersonating women, women impersonating

men, adults impersonating children, outright lies, scams, hoaxes, you

name it. In almost every sitaution, the person or persons who

perpetrated the fraud said "I didn't mean to hurt anyone. I didn't

realize people would take it so seriously." Some added, "I had good

intentions." A few also added rather snidely, "It's only the

internet," as if that makes it okay to lie, manipulate people, and

hurt others.

 

Many years ago, when I was totally new to the net, I was drawn into

the web of someone who just wanted to manipulate people's emotions

for his own personal gratification. I got burned very badly, but I

learned a lesson from it. The lesson wasn't "don't believe anything

you read", it was "take it all with a grain of salt."

 

> this so called girl, i talked with her in chat a few times, and her

> stories didn't always match the ones that were in the diaries.

> well, you know what they say.... "the truth is easier to remember

> than a lie".

 

This is pretty much the key, I think. No one can consistantly

maintain a complex lie perfectly for very long. There were a lot of

little weirdnesses in Kaycee's blog that some people picked up on,

little details that just didn't jibe. This is true of just about

every fraud, liar, and con artist I've ever known (and I've known

many such people in my lifetime, actually). When you press them,

they'll come up with "explanations" that should raise red flags.

 

Some people think being cynical is a negative trait, but a little

cynicism can go a long way and save a lot of later heartache.

 

bonni

http://bonni.net/

 

 

503 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:08am

Subject: Re: debbie bonni@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Sara" wrote:

> I think someone should email (or, better yet, phone) debbie and ask

her

> to post some sort of explanation in here. That's the least she can

do.

 

She's lied to everyone about the matter. She lied to her pastor about

the situation, she lied to the very kind gentleman who hosted her and

Kaycee's websites, she's probably lied to the press and the police.

There's no reason to believe she'd tell the truth in this forum.

 

bonni (cynical? no, more just realistic in this case).

http://bonni.net/

 

 

504 From: chris_san@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:35am

Subject: A genuine Gracemont church photo chris_san@...

Send Email

 

...is now visible in the "Files" section of this group:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kaycee-nicole/files/

 

It was taken by Lanni, a resident of Julie's hometown, Gracemont,

who's been kind enough to join us in the EFNet chatroom and do some

actual running around on the ground in Gracemont with a camera. No

photoshopping in sight, folks.

 

 

505 From: chris_san@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:42am

Subject: Re: A genuine Gracemont church photo chris_san@...

Send Email

 

Sorry - forgot to add that Lanni's a real trooper for going out to

the church at 1am (CST, Friday morning) to get the photo. If anyone

deserves a MetaFilter junior spy badge, it's her.

 

 

506 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:07am

Subject: Greymatter sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

The server I ordered came via UPS yesterday afternoon, and this

afternoon I installed Greymatter on it and started messing with it.

I'm quite impressed and I intend to use it.

 

This is also the package which BWG was using to format Kaycee's site.

Some people have wondered why it was that Debbie used to mail her log

entries to BWG so he could put them online.

 

I am no longer mystified by that. Greymatter is a very powerful and

versatile package, but it is by no stretch of the imagination

friendly. It's a very unforgiving environment, and if you don't know

what you're doing you'll screw it up royally. I think that BWG didn't

want to give that kind of power to someone who was clearly a computer

neophyte.

 

(This is not intended as a criticism of Greymatter. I'm very

impressed by it, and I definitely will be using it.)

 

 

507 From: Ian Thompson

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:31am

Subject: Iconoclast mention disarray@...

Send Email

 

A 'publication' called Iconoclast has a trainwreck of a story here:

<http://www.iconocast.com/issue/20010524.html#jacobyte>

 

It's factually incorrect to the point of being laughable, but if anyone's

keeping tabs, it's another mention. *Warning*: the design is as bad as

the story; animation and ads everywhere, and worse yet, background music.

 

--ian thompson

 

 

508 From: "Jim"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:07pm

Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? jim@...

Send Email

 

> No offense Dan because you didn't program Yahoo's poll system, but

it'd be

> nice if the poll were anonymous publicly, so people wouldn't have

to

> advertise their embarrassment.

 

I'm embarrassed to say that I DIDN'T send any gifts.

 

It's one of those times that being a selfish prick actually worked

out for me. ;)

 

Jim

 

 

509 From: "Jim"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:19pm

Subject: Re: debbie jim@...

Send Email

 

> > I think someone should email (or, better yet, phone) debbie and

ask

> her

> > to post some sort of explanation in here. That's the least she

can

> do.

 

No doubt she's already here. Reading everything we right.

 

Debbie has somewhat internet savy. And is known to use multiple

aliases.

 

She accessed the forum at my website as "Hannah" after "Kaycee's"

death. "Hannah" was the only one who posted that she knew and

met "Kaycee". Said she was a schoolmate. Blah, blah, blah.

 

Randy (the bwg) knew it was Debbie right away because of a tell-tale

misspelling ("talanted" instead of "talented").

 

My point: She's probably here. Using an alias. And may even be

participating.

 

Jim

 

ps - We pulled all the "Kaycee" posts off my forum. And they weren't

archives. Looking back, I wish I'd kept that message.

 

 

510 From: "Tara"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:19pm

Subject: Re: Re: debbie tara@...

Send Email

 

> ps - We pulled all the "Kaycee" posts off my forum. And they weren't

> archives. Looking back, I wish I'd kept that message.

 

didn't stay up long enough to be googled?

or in somebody's HD cache?

 

Tara

Je réponds au mieux de mes connaissances...

Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org

Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net

 

 

511 From: "Jim"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:25pm

Subject: Re: Greymatter jim@...

Send Email

 

> This is also the package (Greymatter) which BWG was using to format

Kaycee's site.

> Some people have wondered why it was that Debbie used to mail her

log

> entries to BWG so he could put them online.

 

Randy (bwg) didn't start using GreyMatter until very recently.

Everything else was posted using blogger. It was when blogger started

slowing down and/or eating posts that Randy got turned on to

Greymatter.

 

Debbie/Kaycee would email to Randy so that Randy could edit grammar,

spelling and clarity. Randy is a talented writer.

 

Randy, btw, is hard a work writing a piece that will get his story

out.

 

Jim

 

 

512 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:39pm

Subject: Re: Photos mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jadeodowd@a... wrote:

> But just think about this for a minute, what if you were Julie

> Fullbright? Wouldn't this sort of thing creep you out?

 

Completely. Several people shared family photos with "Kaycee," and

one of their biggest fears now is that Debbie will use them in

another identity hoax.

 

Link: http://www.vanderwoning.ca/archives/kc.html

 

 

513 From: "Jim"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:06pm

Subject: BWG Speaks jim@...

Send Email

 

Randy has posted his "opus" and tells his whole story:

 

http://vanderwoning.com/mess.shtml

 

Jim

 

 

514 From: Al Sessions

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:41pm

Subject: Re: Greymatter al@...

Send Email

 

sdenbes1@... wrote:

 

> This is also the package which BWG was using to format Kaycee's site.

> Some people have wondered why it was that Debbie used to mail her log

> entries to BWG so he could put them online.

 

> I am no longer mystified by that. Greymatter is a very powerful and

> versatile package, but it is by no stretch of the imagination

> friendly. It's a very unforgiving environment, and if you don't know

> what you're doing you'll screw it up royally. I think that BWG didn't

> want to give that kind of power to someone who was clearly a computer

> neophyte.

 

Greymatter allows for multiple authors.

 

There is no need for a newbie poster to ever touch the PERL, templates

or configuration. In this sense once someone sets up the site, it is

as idiot proof as blogger.

 

--

Al Sessions

al@...

http://fatuos.com

 

 

515 From: "Nikki"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 2:17pm

Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? blkbbwprincess@...

Send Email

 

I personally sent Kaycee gifts and received some

 

 

516 From: "Nikki"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 2:18pm

Subject: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? blkbbwprincess@...

Send Email

 

I sent and received gifts from Kaycee

 

517 From: saundra@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:36pm

Subject: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article saundra@...

Send Email

 

Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

 

"Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get this.....he

thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having followed

the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy with

the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie

Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to pull

up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you might

be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he will

write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't see

it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the

janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."

 

They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:

 

http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052

5hoax_txt.htm

 

Saundra

 

 

518 From: metrocake@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:38pm

Subject: Metafilter back up -- BUT.... metrocake@...

Send Email

 

Hi, everyone!

 

Metafilter is back up, BUT is moving extremely slow. On the sidebar

on the front page (if you're using IE and don't have it collapsed) it

says, "Thursday -- Let's keep the Kaycee talk to a minimum, okay?

This is a better place for it." The linked "better place" is here.

Could we try to stick to that? :)

 

So you all know, Matt is hosting Metafilter off a DSL line:

"oh yeah, let me know if the DSL line is noticeably slower. It should

be, it's only a 128kbps line. I'd suggest everyone limits their front

page to <3 days view as well." There is also expected to be another

outage when he finds a new host. (He posted this in "Metatalk," by

the way. I'm just sharing.)

 

You can limit your front page view by going here:

http://www.metafilter.com/contribute/customize.cfm

 

Scroll down to "number of days on front page." The default is seven,

but let's try and conserve that bandwidth, kiddees, so we can all

play in the sandbox. I'm setting mine, as suggested, to three.

After you've reset that default, don't forget to scroll to the bottom

of the page and click on "change your preferences." Now you're done!

 

Enjoy...

 

-- Roe

 

 

519 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:54pm

Subject: Re: Greymatter sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Al Sessions wrote:

>

> Greymatter allows for multiple authors.

>

> There is no need for a newbie poster to ever touch the PERL, templates

> or configuration. In this sense once someone sets up the site, it is

> as idiot proof as blogger.

 

Since I've never used Blogger, I wouldn't know about that. But I do know that a computer neophyte is going to have a hard time with Greymatter even just to create log entries when someone else has set up the site format.

 

 

520 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:07pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

>

> "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> this.....he thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned

> up to having followed the Kaycee web site so I guess he is

> one of those who are unhappy with the ending. He was checking

> to see if there really was a Debbie Swenson. So you might

> check out the Pocono Record.....I had to pull up Pocono Mts

> to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you might be

> smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he

> will write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but

> I didn't see it on their home page where they listed the

> staff...probably the janitor skulking around playing ace

> reporter."

 

Not THAT hard to find. Ah, poor benighted folks who don't know how to

use search engines ... especially Google, where it's at the very top.

http://www.poconorecord.com/topstory/mainframe.htm

 

There's no story yet. True enough, no Eric on staff either:

http://www.poconorecord.com/info/inside/contactus.html

 

Doesn't mean he's not a stringer or freelancer pumping up his

affiliation.

 

 

521 From: "Dwivian"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:19pm

Subject: Re: How Many More Frauds Are Out There? dwivian@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:

> This is pretty much the key, I think. No one can consistantly

> maintain a complex lie perfectly for very long. There were a lot of

> little weirdnesses in Kaycee's blog that some people picked up on,

> little details that just didn't jibe. This is true of just about

> every fraud, liar, and con artist I've ever known (and I've known

> many such people in my lifetime, actually). When you press them,

> they'll come up with "explanations" that should raise red flags.

 

The problem is, people that give out details of the TRUTH have issues

with consitency. One of the tricks to determining if it is a lie is

if the story is not completely consistent, but not overly mangled.

Things that are perfect show too much forethought and management, so

don't accept them as a guarantee of truth, either.

 

-dwiv

 

 

522 From: "Tim Cunningham"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:22pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article timmopussycat@...

Send Email

 

I'm just a very infrequent visitor to the KC site, not emotionally

involved, but following the story out of sheer fascination.

 

I hope that this Eric has a bass voice rather than a tenor one. If

the latter I wonder: could it be another alias of Debbie?

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

> >

> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> > this.....he thinks YOU guys are a fraud. (snip)

His name was Eric something, but I didn't see it on their home page

where they listed the staff...probably the janitor skulking around

playing ace reporter."

>

> Not THAT hard to find. Ah, poor benighted folks who don't know how

to

> use search engines ... especially Google, where it's at the very

top.

> http://www.poconorecord.com/topstory/mainframe.htm

>

> There's no story yet. True enough, no Eric on staff either:

> http://www.poconorecord.com/info/inside/contactus.html

>

> Doesn't mean he's not a stringer or freelancer pumping up his

> affiliation.

 

 

524 From: saundra@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:24pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article saundra@...

Send Email

 

> Not THAT hard to find. Ah, poor benighted folks who don't know how

to

> use search engines ... especially Google, where it's at the very

top.

> http://www.poconorecord.com/topstory/mainframe.htm

 

NOW I know how we can raise money for MetaFilter's new T-1!

 

The MetaFilter Education Society Presents: The Internet for Reporters

101- including how to use search engines, basic Photoshop functions,

how to access vital statistics online, and much, much more! A glossary

of Internet terms and phrases will be provided for easy reference. All

your press are belong to us! Register early, space is limited.

 

Saundra

 

 

525 From: "Cat"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:36pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article frykitty@...

Send Email

 

My first good laugh of the day. Thanks, Saundra.

 

Just remember, you can lead a horticulture...

 

 

Cat

http://www.frykitty.com

 

 

> NOW I know how we can raise money for MetaFilter's new T-1!

>

> The MetaFilter Education Society Presents: The Internet for

Reporters

> 101- including how to use search engines, basic Photoshop

functions,

> how to access vital statistics online, and much, much more! A

glossary

> of Internet terms and phrases will be provided for easy reference.

All

> your press are belong to us! Register early, space is limited.

>

> Saundra

 

 

526 From: commidd@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:50pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article commidd@...

Send Email

 

This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story picked

up on the wire?

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

>

http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052

> 5hoax_txt.htm

>

> Saundra

 

 

527 From: saundra@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 4:56pm

Subject: Minn/St. Paul Coverage saundra@...

Send Email

 

This just popped up in the Star Tribune- it's at the bottom underneath

the story about Etiquette Hell.

 

http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?story=84240541&

template=column_weblog_a

 

Saundra

 

 

528 From: saundra@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:01pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article saundra@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., commidd@y... wrote:

> This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story

picked

> up on the wire?

 

That's a good question. I haven't seen it posted anywhere else, or on

the AP site, but that doesn't mean it's not there either. Anyone have

any inside info?

 

S.

 

 

529 From: yahoo@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:20pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article yahoo@...

Send Email

 

This would be Eric Brooks

 

http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/

 

He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

>

> "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

this.....he

> thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having

followed

> the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy

with

> the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie

> Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to

pull

> up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you

might

> be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he

will

> write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't

see

> it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the

> janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."

>

> They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:

>

>

http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052

> 5hoax_txt.htm

>

> Saundra

 

 

530 From: "Lia Bulaong"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:34pm

Subject: OT: blogs on CNN me@...

Send Email

 

Hi everyone,

 

I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,

talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,

googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a

psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because

"they have strong personalities" or something like that.

 

Nope, sorry, no Debbie!

 

Lia

 

http://cheesedip.com

 

 

531 From:

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:39pm

Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN jr@...

Send Email

 

I believe that was an interview that Evan did quite a while ago.. like a couple of weeks.

----- Original Message -----

From: Lia Bulaong

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:34 PM

Subject: kaycee-nicole OT: blogs on CNN

 

 

Hi everyone,

 

I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,

talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,

googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a

psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because

"they have strong personalities" or something like that.

 

Nope, sorry, no Debbie!

 

Lia

 

http://cheesedip.com

 

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

532 From: "Lia Bulaong"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:43pm

Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN me@...

Send Email

 

Hi everyone,

 

jr said:

> I believe that was an interview that Evan did quite a while ago.. like

> a couple of weeks.

 

Yes, dearie, I know. You're not the only person who reads

Evhead.

 

Lia

 

http://cheesedip.com

 

 

533 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:52pm

Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lia Bulaong" wrote:

> I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,

> talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,

> googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a

> psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because

> "they have strong personalities" or something like that.

 

Lia, was this CNNdotCOM or just mixed in with general news? I assume

you're watching CNN International.

 

 

534 From: metrocake@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:53pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article metrocake@...

Send Email

 

I take it he's the "ericbrooksdotcom" from Metafilter?

 

-- roe

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

> This would be Eric Brooks

>

> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/

>

> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.

>

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

> >

> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> this.....he

> > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having

> followed

> > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy

> with

> > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie

> > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to

> pull

> > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you

> might

> > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he

> will

> > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't

> see

> > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the

> > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."

> >

> > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:

> >

> >

>

http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052

> > 5hoax_txt.htm

> >

> > Saundra

 

 

535 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 5:56pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., commidd@y... wrote:

> > This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story

> picked

> > up on the wire?

>

> That's a good question. I haven't seen it posted anywhere

> else, or on the AP site, but that doesn't mean it's not

> there either. Anyone have any inside info?

 

I've searched every wire source out there, again, and nada. Yahoo for

Reuters, wire.ap.org for Associated Press, even ABCNews Raw.

Moreover.com, OTOH, did pull up the Wichita article directly, on

keyword Kaycee, but nothing newer other than the Iconocast article.

 

It didn't necessarily actually get on the wire, and I don't know but

what there may be local conventions. I do know that local papers scam

stories from each other all the time, sometimes without attribution!

 

Should pick up again if it goes out on the New York Times News

Service ... oops, have I said too much? ;-)

 

 

536 From:

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:10pm

Subject: Re: On the wire? jr@...

Send Email

 

I dunno.... I think it did make it to the wire. There is an article in the Star Tribune, which is in Minneapolis/St. Paul. Considering that its a metro area of over 2 million people, I wouldn't consider it local news.

 

 

> > This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story

> picked

> > up on the wire?

>

> That's a good question. I haven't seen it posted anywhere

> else, or on the AP site, but that doesn't mean it's not

> there either. Anyone have any inside info?

 

I've searched every wire source out there, again, and nada. Yahoo for

Reuters, wire.ap.org for Associated Press, even ABCNews Raw.

Moreover.com, OTOH, did pull up the Wichita article directly, on

keyword Kaycee, but nothing newer other than the Iconocast article.

 

It didn't necessarily actually get on the wire, and I don't know but

what there may be local conventions. I do know that local papers scam

stories from each other all the time, sometimes without attribution!

 

Should pick up again if it goes out on the New York Times News

Service ... oops, have I said too much? ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

537 From: "Lia Bulaong"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:07pm

Subject: Re: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article me@...

Send Email

 

Hi everyone,

 

roe asked:

> I take it he's the "ericbrooksdotcom" from Metafilter?

 

I was wondering why Eric Brooks sounded familiar -- my bad.

 

saundra said:

> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> > this.....he thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up

> > to having followed the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of

> > those who are unhappy with the ending.

 

Looks like Debbie isn't the only one who got caught!

 

Eric was snarky to anyone on the Kaycee MeFi threads who dared

doubt that Kaycee was a fake. He also keeps saying that MeFi is

crap -- on MeFi *and* MetaTalk -- but then returns to post anew,

while still saying MeFi is crap and he won't come back.

 

Lia

 

http://cheesedip.com

 

 

538 From: "Lia Bulaong"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:09pm

Subject: Re: Re: OT: blogs on CNN me@...

Send Email

 

Hi everyone,

 

Dan asked:

> Lia, was this CNNdotCOM or just mixed in with general news? I

> assume you're watching CNN International.

 

Yep, CNN International -- it was mixed in with general news,

although they had a teaser for it a few minutes before it ran (not

mentioning the word "blog" and using journalling instead, which is

going to tick off the diarists, heh). It was narrated by Alison Tom.

 

I think Meg and Ev got most of the screen time, although I don't think

it was mentioned that Meg co-founded or left Pyra, or that Pyra

was having financial trouble.

 

Blogger was mentioned a few times, as were Pitas and I think

Diaryland (Andrew of benicetobears is Canadian, right?), although

Blogger was mentioned the most and had its front page shown.

 

Perhaps I'd better stop being a lazy-ass and install Greymatter this

weekend.

 

Lia

http://cheesedip.com

 

 

539 From: saundra@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:12pm

Subject: Note from "No" in Brazil saundra@...

Send Email

 

Hi y'all. I got a note from a gentleman who works for "No" in Brazil.

Apparently they're a Salon/Feed type magazine, web only, but sometimes

they sell articles to the print media as well. There may be a

follow-up coming soon, but I don't know the details. I was curious

about what kind of magazine it was, and I thought you all might be

too. Now we know!

 

Saundra

 

 

540 From: rpgman@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:22pm

Subject: bwg's Press Release.... rpgman@...

Send Email

 

man, I really feel for this guy.....cheer up big fella.

 

http://vanderwoning.com/mess.shtml

 

rpgman66

 

 

541 From: "Tim Cunningham"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:30pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article timmopussycat@...

Send Email

 

My apologies to Eric Brooks for doubting his existance. Glad to know

that he is not another alias for Debbie

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

> This would be Eric Brooks

>

> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/

>

> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.

>

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

> >

> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> this.....he

> > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having

> followed

> > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy

> with

> > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie

> > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to

> pull

> > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you

> might

> > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he

> will

> > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't

> see

> > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the

> > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."

> >

> > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:

> >

> >

>

http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052

> > 5hoax_txt.htm

> >

> > Saundra

 

 

542 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:33pm

Subject: Re: On the wire? dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> I dunno.... I think it did make it to the wire. There is an

article in the Star Tribune, which is in Minneapolis/St. Paul.

Considering that its a metro area of over 2 million people, I

wouldn't consider it local news.

 

JR, that's Gael's professional weblog that she does for the paper.

She also has a personal weblog at http://www.popculturejunkmail.com/

(I checked, she has NOT covered Kaycee there, it's really off topic

for her culture esoterica).

 

 

543 From: "Jess Cook"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:43pm

Subject: RE: On the wire? jess@...

Send Email

 

The Star Tribune article was written by Gael Fashingbauer Cooper, who is a noted blogger (popculturejunkmail.com) and probable MeFi lurker, which explains why the story turned up in a Minneapolis/St. Paul paper.

 

Jess

pocketgeek.com/pith

 

-----Original Message-----

From: jr@logboy.com [mailto:jr@logboy.com]

Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:10 AM

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: kaycee-nicole On the wire?

 

 

I dunno.... I think it did make it to the wire. There is an article in the Star Tribune, which is in Minneapolis/St. Paul. Considering that its a metro area of over 2 million people, I wouldn't consider it local news.

 

 

 

 

 

544 From: saundra@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:51pm

Subject: Further Dispatches from Peabody saundra@...

Send Email

 

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but I got this mail regarding

some of Debbie's details in the blogs from my pal in Peabody.

 

"I did notice a couple of things tho.....she talked about the 4th of

July celebration last summer and being sprayed with the hose from the

fire truck.. We have a huge 4th Fest thing every summer and draw

thousands to Peabody, and last summer during the parade the fire dept

guys sprayed everyone with the hose on the tank wagon. Also our

athletic team is the politically incorrect "Warriors" tho that might

not be relevant if she started Kaycee before they came here.

 

"Also my oldest daughter was a jock and played basketball in college

on a scholarship.....so I know something about bb in Kansas. There is

no all-state tournament in the summer. The state activities

association has REAL strict rules about teams getting together to play

during the off season. You can't even attend a summer bb camp if more

than some percentage of team is attending the same one. And teams

NEVER play two games in one day....NEVER, the tournaments run on

consecutive nights and end in March/April. All star games (which my

daughter played in) are always done before school is out. The only

summer all star game is the east west Shrine football game in Wichita.

 

"She kept talking about playing games in June, etc. If anyone from

Kansas was parked on that site waiting for her every move, they'd have

known right away she wasn't playing ball. No school or professional

gym in their right minds would let kids into an unventilated or

unairconditioned building in the summer around here to play

ball......that's just ASKING for a law suit! The parents would scream

bloody murder if a coach demanded summer practice under those

conditions. We have days and weeks on end of temps over 100 degrees."

 

Sorry if the formatting is wonky, it didn't behave when I pasted it.

 

Saundra

 

 

545 From: She Of Many Nicknames

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:54pm

Subject: Re: Re: Who here actually sent gifts to Kaycee? mistress_misercordia@...

Send Email

 

I sent some emails, but the only thing I sent that

actually cost money was a really pretty Christmas

card. I didn't get anything in return.

 

Ellie/Epiphany

 

--- Nikki wrote:

> I personally sent Kaycee gifts and received some

>

>

 

 

=====

I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back,

KEEP ME HERE.

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

546 From: Adam Gimbel

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:54pm

Subject: gifts adam@...

Send Email

 

so, i bring in one of my cd's every day and today i brought in a cd that

someone that i'd never met that i knew from online sent me to cheer me up

after my girlfriend Summer (http://www.thesummersite.com) died of cancer.

i remember how weird i felt about it. it felt REALLY strange to get an

actual gift of sympathy for ME from someone i didn't even know. a few

people had sent cards and even some money to Summer while she was sick and

after she passed away that went to helping pay for hospital bills, funeral

costs, and some charity projects. but, this was for ME. i felt really

guilty and sent some stuff in return. the album DID really make me happy.

did the gifts Debbie got somehow make her happy?

 

i just keep wondering what Debbie did with all of those hats & gifts and

how she felt when she opened up the packages. was it like Xmas everytime?

did she donate them or give them away?

 

Adamn

o.o Full weekend of bbq's, Frank Blacks, family brunches & whatnot

`-' Current rave: The Energy Blues by Biz Markie

@--|---> http://mill.net/dumyhead http://www.rookiecardthemovie.com

|

/ \ Cd o' the day (one a day, alphabet stylee yo)

_/ \_ Sloan-Navy Blues

With the recent cancer hoax (http://rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26), it's

weird to bring this in. Someone I'd traded with sent me this before it

came out in the US to cheer me up after Summer died. Incredibly nice

gesture, VERY strange to accept it but it really did make me happy when I

listened to it. They finally came back to SoCal and played one of the

greatest (& loudest) shows I've ever seen. Unreal to see Jay, Chris, Jason

Falkner, Anna Waronker and the McDonald brothers all standing outside

talking before the show. Plus I finally had a "and then we all went back

to Dave Foley's house!" type evenings that tons of people I know have had.

 

 

547 From: "Lisa"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:57pm

Subject: Re: On the wire? lisawhirrett@...

5hoax_txt.htm

 

This article that was posted here earlier says "Associated Press" so

doesn't that mean it's on the wire?

 

lisa

..not a journalist, but I played one on TV.. : )

 

548 From: caf@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:05pm

Subject: Re: On the wire? caf@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lisa" wrote:

 

> This article that was posted here earlier says "Associated

Press" so

> doesn't that mean it's on the wire?

 

you can search the AP wire here -

http://wire.ap.org/APsearch/main.html

 

i did a search on "kaycee" and nothing came up.

 

 

.cf

 

 

549 From: "Joe"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:09pm

Subject: Fox News sardines15@...

Send Email

 

Aplolgies if this has been posted already, but the story made the Fox

site.

 

 

Girl Alive and Well, Despite False Internet Reports

Thursday, May 24, 2001

 

GRACEMONT, Okla. — Get-well wishes and gifts came from around the

world for the young woman whose battle with leukemia was documented

on an Internet site......

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,25662,00.html

 

 

J

 

 

550 From: roel@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:14pm

Subject: Re: bwg's Press Release.... roel@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., rpgman@e... wrote:

> man, I really feel for this guy.....cheer up big fella.

>

> http://vanderwoning.com/mess.shtml

>

> rpgman66

 

Reading the recent 'BWG's Mess' statement convinced me a little bit

more that "Debbie" has some form of Munchausen-by-proxy syndrome.

There is so much medical detail in the statements she made to the Mr.

VanderWoning. Furthermore, it's seems obvious that "Debbie" enjoyed

and probably needs the attention and sympathy her weblog gave her.

I for one think that it's a positive fact that she used a 'virtual'

person in stead of one of her own (or someone elses) 'real life'

child to fake illness. In no way I'm suggesting to let everyone with

Munchausen-by-proxy start a weblog (but I've encountered children

damaged by 'parents' suffering from Munchausen).

 

Just a professional opinion.

 

RJB, MD.

http://www.nonharmful.com

 

 

551 From: saundra@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:25pm

Subject: Re: Fox News saundra@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Joe" wrote:

> Aplolgies if this has been posted already, but the story made the

Fox site.

 

 

This is also credited to AP, and it's mostly the same as what was in

the Wichita Eagle, so apparently it is on the wires now.

 

S.

 

 

552 From: yahoo@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:21pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article yahoo@...

Send Email

 

> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> > this.....he thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned

> > up to having followed the Kaycee web site so I guess he is

> > one of those who are unhappy with the ending. He was checking

> > to see if there really was a Debbie Swenson. So you might

> > check out the Pocono Record.....I had to pull up Pocono Mts

> > to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you might be

> > smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he

> > will write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but

> > I didn't see it on their home page where they listed the

> > staff...probably the janitor skulking around playing ace

> > reporter."

 

Not a janitor, their web designer. Anyone remember that Eric Brooks

is the web designer for the Pocono Record? www.ericbrooks.com

 

:) Suzanne

 

 

553 From: "Allison S."

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:39pm

Subject: Re: Digest Number 23 allison5@...

Send Email

 

I haven't posted much here, but have been following pretty closely. I have

a contact with the AP in Tallahassee, FL who I could tip off about this

story if need be. He writes for broadcast, but would know the right person

to make aware of the story. I don't know how often he'll check his email

over the weekend, but it's worth a shot.

 

Allison

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

To:

Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 2:08 PM

Subject: kaycee-nicole Digest Number 23

 

 

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> There are 7 messages in this issue.

>

> Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article

> From: yahoo@...

> 2. OT: blogs on CNN

> From: "Lia Bulaong"

> 3. Re: OT: blogs on CNN

> From:

> 4. Re: OT: blogs on CNN

> From: "Lia Bulaong"

> 5. Re: OT: blogs on CNN

> From: dhartung@...

> 6. Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article

> From: metrocake@...

> 7. Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article

> From: dhartung@...

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> ____________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:20:16 -0000

> From: yahoo@...

> Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article

>

> This would be Eric Brooks

>

> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/

>

> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.

>

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

> >

> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> this.....he

> > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having

> followed

> > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy

> with

> > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie

> > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to

> pull

> > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you

> might

> > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he

> will

> > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't

> see

> > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the

> > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."

> >

> > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:

> >

> >

> http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052

> > 5hoax_txt.htm

> >

> > Saundra

>

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> ____________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:34:36 +0800

> From: "Lia Bulaong"

> Subject: OT: blogs on CNN

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,

> talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,

> googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a

> psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because

> "they have strong personalities" or something like that.

>

> Nope, sorry, no Debbie!

>

> Lia

>

> http://cheesedip.com

>

>

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> ____________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:39:38 -0500

> From:

> Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN

>

> I believe that was an interview that Evan did quite a while ago.. like a

couple of weeks.

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Lia Bulaong

> To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:34 PM

> Subject: kaycee-nicole OT: blogs on CNN

>

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,

> talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,

> googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a

> psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because

> "they have strong personalities" or something like that.

>

> Nope, sorry, no Debbie!

>

> Lia

>

> http://cheesedip.com

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

>

> www.

>

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

>

>

>

> This message contained attachments

>

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> ____________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 4

> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:43:04 +0800

> From: "Lia Bulaong"

> Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> jr said:

> > I believe that was an interview that Evan did quite a while ago.. like

> > a couple of weeks.

>

> Yes, dearie, I know. You're not the only person who reads

> Evhead.

>

> Lia

>

> http://cheesedip.com

>

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> ____________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 5

> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:52:15 -0000

> From: dhartung@...

> Subject: Re: OT: blogs on CNN

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lia Bulaong" wrote:

> > I just saw Megnut, Evhead, Justin (links.net) and Peterme on CNN,

> > talking about blogging. Also Jasmine Rizer (or Jazmine? Either way,

> > googling for her blog was unsuccessful) and John Grohol, a

> > psychologist who apparently believes that people blog because

> > "they have strong personalities" or something like that.

>

> Lia, was this CNNdotCOM or just mixed in with general news? I assume

> you're watching CNN International.

>

>

>

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> ____________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 6

> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:53:32 -0000

> From: metrocake@...

> Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article

>

> I take it he's the "ericbrooksdotcom" from Metafilter?

>

> -- roe

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

> > This would be Eric Brooks

> >

> > http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/

> >

> > He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.

> >

> >

> >

> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

> > >

> > > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> > this.....he

> > > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having

> > followed

> > > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy

> > with

> > > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie

> > > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to

> > pull

> > > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you

> > might

> > > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he

> > will

> > > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't

> > see

> > > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the

> > > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."

> > >

> > > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:

> > >

> > >

> >

> http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052

> > > 5hoax_txt.htm

> > >

> > > Saundra

>

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> ____________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 7

> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:56:59 -0000

> From: dhartung@...

> Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., commidd@y... wrote:

> > > This article says 'Associated Press' at the top. Was the story

> > picked

> > > up on the wire?

> >

> > That's a good question. I haven't seen it posted anywhere

> > else, or on the AP site, but that doesn't mean it's not

> > there either. Anyone have any inside info?

>

> I've searched every wire source out there, again, and nada. Yahoo for

> Reuters, wire.ap.org for Associated Press, even ABCNews Raw.

> Moreover.com, OTOH, did pull up the Wichita article directly, on

> keyword Kaycee, but nothing newer other than the Iconocast article.

>

> It didn't necessarily actually get on the wire, and I don't know but

> what there may be local conventions. I do know that local papers scam

> stories from each other all the time, sometimes without attribution!

>

> Should pick up again if it goes out on the New York Times News

> Service ... oops, have I said too much? ;-)

>

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> ____________________________________________________________________

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>

 

 

554 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:20pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

> This would be Eric Brooks

> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/

> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.

 

So Eric's working to prove that Debbie's not a real person, after

abusing all the people who thought Kaycee might be a fake? At least

he's consistently wrong.

 

 

555 From: nycpug@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:27pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article nycpug@...

Send Email

 

Yes, and the same Eric Brooks who just admitted to cheating at

Webbieworld by having a hidden frame autoloading votes for him.

 

http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/#newsitem990782357,51781,

 

Nice guy, eh?

 

Faith

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

> This would be Eric Brooks

>

> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/

>

> He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.

>

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > Another note from one of the folks in Peabody:

> >

> > "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get

> this.....he

> > thinks YOU guys are a fraud. but he also owned up to having

> followed

> > the Kaycee web site so I guess he is one of those who are unhappy

> with

> > the ending. He was checking to see if there really was a Debbie

> > Swenson. So you might check out the Pocono Record.....I had to

> pull

> > up Pocono Mts to find it, wade thru the tourist stuff, but you

> might

> > be smarter about getting that kind of stuff. I don't know if he

> will

> > write anything or not. His name was Eric something, but I didn't

> see

> > it on their home page where they listed the staff...probably the

> > janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."

> >

> > They also included a link to the article in the Wichita Eagle:

> >

> >

>

http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2001/05/25/kansas/052

> > 5hoax_txt.htm

> >

> > Saundra

 

 

556 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:31pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

> "Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday

 

Yep... that would be me.

 

> and get this.....he

> thinks YOU guys are a fraud.

 

No actually, my red flags were raised about "The Peabody Gazette".

Anyone check out the interNIC whois info?

http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?

STRING=peabodykansas.com

 

The site was set up in January... there are no articles from the

previous week. I just wanted to check out if this site was

conveniently created to corroborate the whole story one way or

another.

 

I didn't accuse *anyone* of being a fraud. The story still reeks on

several sides, and I wanted to establish if there really *is* a

Debbie Swenson or this is an authentic newspaper.

 

There's still a lot of things not adding up.

 

>I don't know if he will write anything or not.

 

No I told this person I was planning on writing about Kaycee shortly

after her death...

 

> probably the

> janitor skulking around playing ace reporter."

 

heh heh... who wrote this note, I'll kick their ass. :0)

 

 

557 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:35pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., nycpug@a... wrote:

> Yes, and the same Eric Brooks who just admitted to cheating at

> Webbieworld by having a hidden frame autoloading votes for him.

> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/#newsitem990782357,51781,

> Nice guy, eh?

 

Eric is trying hard to make this his Waterloo. A quote from his

blog:

 

"When you guys are all done being mad at Debbie (assuming she

exists...) I would like to welcome her into my very small (but

probably larger that your...) circle of friends."

 

Whatta maroon. Why are we focusing so much energy on giving John a

hard time for being too trusting, when we could just make fun of Eric?

 

 

558 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:42pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "gOdOfMiScHiEf" wrote:

> The site was set up in January... there are no articles from the

> previous week.

 

There are articles dating back to at least Feb. 7 on that site:

 

http://www.peabodykansas.com/6news_index.html

 

> I didn't accuse *anyone* of being a fraud. The story still reeks

on

> several sides, and I wanted to establish if there really *is* a

> Debbie Swenson or this is an authentic newspaper.

 

On Sunday night, I checked the tax records for the Peabody, Kansas,

address that was circulated on MetaFilter in one of the Kaycee

threads. Debbie and Tom Swenson live there.

 

The Fullbrights have said in at least two interviews that they know

Debbie and the other members of the Swenson family. What more

confirmation do you need?

 

 

559 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:50pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

> What more

> confirmation do you need?

 

Well if there's one thing I learned from that MetaFilter thread was

that we shouldn't go on anything just on someone's say-so. at this

point I don't believe a damn thing from anyone until I see solid

proof.

 

Can we at least agree on that one, sparky?

 

 

560 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:54pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

"Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

 

> There are articles dating back to at least Feb. 7 on that site:

 

Well, you must know some magic back-door on that site, because

the "Previous Week" link is dead, I can't find "Archives", and their

search engine takes you to Newsling.Org.

 

 

561 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 10:12pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "gOdOfMiScHiEf" wrote:

> Well, you must know some magic back-door on that site, because

> the "Previous Week" link is dead, I can't find "Archives", and

their

> search engine takes you to Newsling.Org.

 

They appear to have screwed up the Previous Week link today or

yesterday -- it worked when the article was first posted. However,

when the Previous Week link is to 20nav.htm, it doesn't take a magic

back door -- I just looked for older archives at 19nav.htm, 18nav.htm

and so on.

 

 

562 From: "Roberta Africa-Johnson"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 10:23pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article schwanze69@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "gOdOfMiScHiEf" wrote:

> > Well, you must know some magic back-door on that site, because

> > the "Previous Week" link is dead, I can't find "Archives", and

> their

> > search engine takes you to Newsling.Org.

>

> They appear to have screwed up the Previous Week link today or

> yesterday -- it worked when the article was first posted. However,

> when the Previous Week link is to 20nav.htm, it doesn't take a

magic

> back door -- I just looked for older archives at 19nav.htm,

18nav.htm

> and so on.

 

if you type this link it gives an apache error with more filenames!

 

http://www.peabodykansas.com/1news_index.html

 

 

563 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 10:58pm

Subject: Hey now -- watch it..... memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

> No actually, my red flags were raised about "The Peabody Gazette".

> Anyone check out the interNIC whois info?

> http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?

> STRING=peabodykansas.com

>

> The site was set up in January... there are no articles from the

> previous week. I just wanted to check out if this site was

> conveniently created to corroborate the whole story one way or

> another.

 

THe Peabody Gazette has been in existence for years. In the last

year it was sold to the publisher of the newspaper in the county seat

of Marion. The news is gathered in Peabody but sent to Marion for

setting in the paper. I imagine that is why they are now on-line.

Peabody has only been on the internet for about three years as the

closest "local number" was an hour away. We aren't quite as up-to-

speed as the bigger communities because of our rural location.

 

Peabody is a proud community. Our 1880's Main Street is a tourist

attraction in the state. We aren't the Kaycee story -- it just

happened to come from here.

 

Don't pull us into the fraud.

 

 

564 From: dhartung@...

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:10pm

Subject: Co-Moderators dhartung@...

Send Email

 

In anticipation of the holiday weekend (Monday is US Memorial Day),

when I'll be mostly unavailable, I've appointed Lia, Saundra, and

Rogers co-moderators. They're empowered to remove offensive or

inappropriate posts, and remove or ban members if that should prove

necessary. Beyond that, I've asked them to referee keeping

discussions on topic. I hope they have nothing to do! Maybe by the

time I'm back we'll all be bored to death of this story. :)

 

Dan

 

 

565 From: "Jenifer"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:11pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article jourdannex@...

Send Email

 

You mean Eric is real?

 

He walks? He talks? He shares the Earth with us?

 

Say it isn't so

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Tim Cunningham"

wrote:

> My apologies to Eric Brooks for doubting his existance. Glad to

know

> that he is not another alias for Debbie

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., yahoo@i... wrote:

> > This would be Eric Brooks

> >

> > http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/

> >

> > He is the webmaster for the Pocono Record web site.

 

 

566 From: "Jon Sullivan"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:27pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article jon@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

> Why are we focusing so much energy on giving John a

> hard time for being too trusting, when we could just

> make fun of Eric?

 

Well, maybe because Eric *likes* you to make fun of him. The more you

abuse Brooks, the happier he is. Some sort of "pig in shit" complex.

 

Personally, I found Eric last year after he trashed some web design I

did. I made it my gaol in life to flame him out of existence.

Eventually I actually grew to like the little spaz.

 

Don't think for one second he doesn't know exactly what he's doing.

And what people will think of it. For myself - I find it amusing.

Your mileage may vary.

 

 

567 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:58pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jon Sullivan" wrote:

> Well, maybe because Eric *likes* you to make fun of him. The more

you

> abuse Brooks, the happier he is. Some sort of "pig in shit" complex.

>

> Personally, I found Eric last year after he trashed some web design

I

> did. I made it my gaol in life to flame him out of existence.

> Eventually I actually grew to like the little spaz.

 

There's a certain amount of charm in someone who is so consistently,

aggressively wrong. I would have been disappointed if he came away

from this experience chastened and humbled, vowing to think first

before flying off the handle.

 

I'd also like to see John Styn change nothing from his experience.

I've always enjoyed his sites and his genuine positive attitude, as

much as I find it personally unnerving. There aren't many people who

could write an essay on the importance of maintaining a good vibe at

a party without a hint of ironic detachment. If the price of all that

is an overwillingness to believe in babealicious, corn-fed 19-year-

old coeds whose health battles sound like a Lifetime movie, I think

we should be willing to pay that price.

 

 

568 From: "matt"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 0:16am

Subject: Re: On the wire? captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

The AP website doesn't have access to every story on the wire. Ditto

any other website.

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., caf@y... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lisa" wrote:

>

> > This article that was posted here earlier says "Associated

> Press" so

> > doesn't that mean it's on the wire?

>

> you can search the AP wire here -

> http://wire.ap.org/APsearch/main.html

>

> i did a search on "kaycee" and nothing came up.

>

>

> .cf

 

 

569 From: "Cheryl Eve"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 0:29am

Subject: Munchausen-by-Internet... angelwng@...

Send Email

 

Even though the diagnosis of Munchausen-by-proxy is a tough one to

make, I agree with this assessment, but I do think that the potential

for harm to existing children still exists. I'm thinking of many of

the things Debbie wrote about her daughter and husband, and the

curious lack of much to say about her son. It seems that long term

harm could very easily come from the comments from "Kaycee" about her

sister that basically said "even though i'm tall, blonde, slim,

popular, athletic, and all-around 'awesome' - my sister is awesome in

her own way." My take, obviously, on her comments that they were

condasending and clear that the kid sister didn't measure up.

 

Yes, many online folks who knew her have had their feelings hurt, but

imagine reading those things as your mothers' inner feelings about

you. We'll all get over this - her daughter might not.

 

Certainly it's speculation, but an interesting one to consider if the

internet version becomes widely recognized as a twist on this

syndrome. (Watch for the section in a college text book coming soon,

perhaps ;)

 

P.S. on a similar vein, Mr. Brooks and his various nicks have an

interesting knack for re-directing discussions back to himself. Even

though it's fun in a loopy sort of way to watch his version of train

wrecks, hopefully, we won't let that distract us toward any wild(er)

goose chases!

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., roel@n... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., rpgman@e... wrote:

> > man, I really feel for this guy.....cheer up big fella.

> >

> > http://vanderwoning.com/mess.shtml

> >

> > rpgman66

>

> Reading the recent 'BWG's Mess' statement convinced me a little bit

> more that "Debbie" has some form of Munchausen-by-proxy syndrome.

> There is so much medical detail in the statements she made to the

Mr.

> VanderWoning. Furthermore, it's seems obvious that "Debbie" enjoyed

> and probably needs the attention and sympathy her weblog gave her.

> I for one think that it's a positive fact that she used a 'virtual'

> person in stead of one of her own (or someone elses) 'real life'

> child to fake illness. In no way I'm suggesting to let everyone

with

> Munchausen-by-proxy start a weblog (but I've encountered children

> damaged by 'parents' suffering from Munchausen).

>

> Just a professional opinion.

>

> RJB, MD.

> http://www.nonharmful.com

 

 

570 From: "Caroline"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:35am

Subject: Re: On the wire? cedly@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "matt" wrote:

> The AP website doesn't have access to every story on the wire.

Ditto

> any other website.

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., caf@y... wrote:

> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lisa" wrote:

> >

> > > This article that was posted here earlier says "Associated

> > Press" so

> > > doesn't that mean it's on the wire?

 

Even if you have access to the wire itself, not just the site,

searching the AP can be really ridiculous -- it's designed more so

newspapers can browse through the news based on "urgent" warnings and

read digests they post listing the top stories of the day/hour/etc.

Keywords turn up in the headlines (for example "Bush-TaxCut"

or "China-Plane") so maybe "InternetHoax" would be something they'd

name a story like this, but it's really hard to find words in the

content of the article. (At least, that's how our wire worked. Maybe

there's some sort of "bonus subscription" I'm unaware of, hah.)

 

 

571 From: "Kristin"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 11:32pm

Subject: Kaycee Yahoo Club tokristin@...

Send Email

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

 

> In anticipation of the holiday weekend (Monday is US Memorial Day),

> when I'll be mostly unavailable, I've appointed Lia, Saundra, and

> Rogers co-moderators.

 

Woohoo! Time to cause a ruckus!!

 

Sadly, two exclamation marks is about as much ruckus as I can cause. On a

slightly more serious note, did anyone here archive any of the postings or

membership list from the Kaycee Yahoo Club?

 

If you did, can you get in touch with me?

 

Thanks much,

 

Kristin

 

http://www.sperare.com

 

 

572 From: lucinder@...

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 9:04am

Subject: The "Kaycees" of the World lucinder@...

Send Email

 

Even though I am angry and hurting over

this deception, I am now more aware of

the "kaycees" of the rest of the world.

I do not want to close myself off to

others who may one day reach me the same

way Debbie did to all of us, but to those

who are real and genuine, real-life people.

 

Kaycee came to us at a wonderful website

where we were all friends and like family.

We took her in a real family member and

faught with her everyday thier were people

cheering her on, and in return we all

seemed to recieve some kind of inspiration

from her words, and a broader prospective

of a new appreciation of life.

 

Finding out it was a hoax at first made many

of us angry and hurt. But a lot of us are

still struggling to remain trusting,

loving, and compassionate toward strangers

out there. In NO WAY do we want to let this

experience tarnish our inner faith in people

as a whole.

There are MANY kaycees in the world right now.

"KAYCEE" will always represent that newfound

appreciation of life that I learned from the

weblogs...real or fabricated...it touched me.

 

I still feel anger and feel ultimately

betrayed, but I promise myself and to all

the other "kaycees" that I wont let this

experience change my faith in people or my

compassion for a stranger who comes in a

chatroom to invite me into thier world,

however challenging it may be.

 

 

573 From: "John Harris Stevenson <tranquileye.com>"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 0:19pm

Subject: "Kaycee Nicole" Search Makes Yahoo Buzz Index tranquileye@...

Send Email

 

Kaycee Nicole search enters Yahoo Buzz Index at number 4 with a

bullet, ahead of Robert Downey Jr. and behind James Jeffords:

 

http://buzz.yahoo.com/movers/overall/

 

Good to see surfers have their priorities straight.

 

Guess where the chart link points? Right here.

 

Johnny

 

 

574 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:15pm

Subject: Re: Hey now -- watch it..... okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> Peabody is a proud community...We aren't the Kaycee story -- it

just

> happened to come from here.

>

> Don't pull us into the fraud.

 

That's all fine and good. And I'm ready to chalk up my suspicions to

bad coding. I work for a chain of newspapers owned by Ottaway

newspapers and Dow Jones. While we have a more state-of-the-art way

of retrieving news via AP servers and custom programming, many of

our "brother and sister" papers still do their sites by hand.

 

So I'm willing to concede that there's an actual paper called "The

Peabody Gazzete".

 

Fine. Done. Out of the way.

 

To Whoever returned my call when I left a message (Maybe it was you,

I didn't catch a name... my boss reams me out constantly for that).

I didn't think a small town paper was going to call the Poconos so I

left my email address: webmaster@....

 

To go through great lengths to find the Pocono Record site after that

tells me you guys aren't very tech saavy.

 

Fine.

 

**********

This will be the last time I try to explain where I'm coming from...

**********

 

I spent two days defending what turned out to be lies. Now I'm going

to start from scratch, assume nothing, and establish facts from the

ground up. This has pissed off a few people here, as they have

already established things and posted them here.

 

Well fine, you know it's true... you know you're legit. But how do I

know someone here is not Debbie throwing in little tidbits to knock

us off track? That's what *I* would do if I were her.

 

That's all. I'm doing this out of personal curiosity to get the

quest for the truth. I put a load of questions together, and will

rule out each of my theorums out systematically.

 

I'll read through this discussion group when I have the time to find

out what's been established.

 

 

575 From: okeyloki@...

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:22pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

 

>I would have been disappointed if he came away

> from this experience chastened and humbled, vowing to think first

> before flying off the handle.

 

Well, hate to dissapoint you buddy... but that's exactly what I

conceded the day after it was all proven a lie at MetaFilter:

 

http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/990319486,44381,.shtml

 

I was wrong... I apologized.

Can we *PLEASE* move on????

 

 

576 From: "Lia Bulaong"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:56pm

Subject: Re: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article me@...

Send Email

 

Hi everyone,

 

Eric wrote:

> Well, hate to dissapoint you buddy... but that's exactly what I

> conceded the day after it was all proven a lie at MetaFilter:

>

> http://www.ericbrooks.com/whuzzup/990319486,44381,.shtml

 

Hate to disappoint you, buddy, but a) apparently nobody goes to

your site to read what you have to say, and b) disappoint has one

s and two ps.

 

So how do we know YOU aren't Debbie? Since you've spread

disinformation since the beginning, and we've now established that

neither of you can spell. Heh.

 

Lia

 

http://cheesedip.com

 

 

577 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 3:02pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lia Bulaong" wrote:

> So how do we know YOU aren't Debbie?

 

Doesn't matter... I arrived her via my referrer logs.

 

Thought I could join in on the discussion (since apparently I *was*

the topic in this thread), and I've had nothing but hostile bullshit

from you people since.

 

I came to explain my side...

Apparently I needed to apologize... yet again.

And well, fuck you Lia (sp?)

 

578 From: "Patti"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 3:12pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article patti_wells@...

Send Email

 

> I was wrong... I apologized.

> Can we *PLEASE* move on????

 

Whassa matter, Eric? Getting a little too hot for you? Here's what

you need to understand (at least from my point of view):

 

Reporters spend a great deal of time building up the trust people have

in them. Their credibility and integrity is key to what they do. They

are agents for their publication(s) and if they screw up, or lie, or

mislead in a story they write, then their publication pays the price.

 

What you did, by calling that place and identifying yourself as a

reporter for the Pocono Record, is lie. Not only did you lie, but you

intentionally misled these people. You committed identity fraud. You

broke the law and you did it to satisfy your personal interest in the

matter.

 

People are not going to just forget that - especially not in the light

of recent events. I certainly hope your bosses don't find out what you

did, because you might find yourself out of a job, and out of a

trailer because of it.

 

Leave the investigative reporting to the people that have earned the

right and respectability to do it.

 

;Patti

 

 

579 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 4:09pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Patti" wrote:

> Here's what

> you need to understand (at least from my point of view):

 

> What you did, by calling that place and identifying yourself as a

> reporter for the Pocono Record, is lie. Not only did you lie, but

you

> intentionally misled these people. You committed identity fraud.

You

> broke the law and you did it to satisfy your personal interest in

the

> matter.


Jesus fucking Christ...

From the original letter:

 

">Some guy with the Pocono Record called yesterday and get this....."

 

Did I say I was a reporter?

No.

 

I told this person I handle all the websites... I left my email

address on their machine which was WEBMASTER at poconorecord.com

 

Am I allowed to write a story?

Yes. Not on the Pocono Record but in Eastern Pocono Community News

 

http://www.epcommunitynews.com

 

People are allowed to submit stories articles and news, and *THAT'S*

where I planned to submit the story. Right to the editor, who

happens to sit 10 feet away from me in the same cubicle.


 

You and Faith (message 555) can keep trying Patti...

 

Just keep your little campaign out of this discussion group, okay?

 

 

580 From: "Lia Bulaong"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 4:26pm

Subject: apology me@...

Send Email

 

Hi everyone,

 

I feel like I should apologize to everyone for my lapse a few emails

back -- I forgot that we're supposed to encourage Eric Brooks to

be an ass while refraining from criticizing him lest we hurt his

apparently onion skin-thin feelings.

 

Just a bit of friendly advice: Eric, sweetie, if you can't take what

you so frequently dish out, perhaps you'd better learn to play nice,

or alternately, stop whining like a baby.

 

Sincerely,

Lia

 

http://cheesedip.com

 

 

581 From: "Patti"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 4:37pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article patti_wells@...

Send Email

 

> Am I allowed to write a story?

> Yes. Not on the Pocono Record but in Eastern Pocono Community News

>

> http://www.epcommunitynews.com

>

> People are allowed to submit stories articles and news, and *THAT'S*

> where I planned to submit the story. Right to the editor, who

> happens to sit 10 feet away from me in the same cubicle.

 

Eric,

 

I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but that is, if I read

the title correctly, a COMMUNITY NEWSPAPER. I just don't see how you

can make this story fit into that type of publication. Peabody, Kansas

has nothing to do with a bunch of townships in Pennsylvania.

 

It's like trying to publish a story about vaginal itching in Men's

Health. It just won't work.

 

Stick to writing fairy tales - you're obviously really good at coming

up with fictional ideas.

 

;-Patti

 

 

582 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 5:07pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody/Wichita Eagle Article okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Patti" wrote:

> > Am I allowed to write a story?

>I just don't see how you

> can make this story fit into that type of publication. Peabody,

Kansas

> has nothing to do with a bunch of townships in Pennsylvania.

 

http://www.epcommunitynews.com/042001/kkorner.htm

Really? Kim wrote about Timothy McVeigh here...

Did Oklahoma City move to PA and no one told me.


> Stick to writing fairy tales - you're obviously really good at

coming

> up with fictional ideas.

 

Learn how to read before you start accusing people of breaking the

law, like you did in your last thread. It's the only reason I'm

still posting here.

 

 

583 From: "Jon Sullivan"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 5:08pm

Subject: Re: apology jon@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lia Bulaong" wrote:

> refraining from criticizing him lest we hurt his

> apparently onion skin-thin feelings.

 

People..... Please.

 

1) I warned you. He'll suck you in. Do you feel like pulling your

hair out? He got ya. Will anyone change their mind about Eric? Do

think we all don't already know? Personally, as a discordian, my hat

is off to the guy. He's raised "spastic" to an art. While I typically

don't approve of hie behavior, I still like the guy.

 

2) Don't you notice that you are helping him become the focus of this

forum?

 

3) So...... no new Kaycee news? No MP3s of the phone calls? What

about a story from Julie. I'd love to hear her talk about Debbie.

 

Jon Sullivan

http://www.jonsullivan.com/

 

 

584 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 5:16pm

Subject: Re: apology okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Jon Sullivan" wrote:

2) Don't you notice that you are helping him become the focus of this

> forum?

 

SHHHHH! :0)

I'm sorry folks, as you all were saying?

 

 

585 From: dhartung@...

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 5:17pm

Subject: Separate corners. NOW. dhartung@...

Send Email

 

Look. Eric is entitled to his opinion and to post it on his website.

 

Eric shouldn't expect people here to telepathically grok that he's

apologized over there, though. Eric, you could have poitned that out

earlier.

 

Patti, it's none of your business (or this group's) what the Pocono

Record prints or publishes, and Eric seems to have some

stringer/freelancer status, which is common in small papers. Big

deal. He's hardly the first person in all of this to go calling

around fishing for information.

 

Lia, no more dishing, OK? It may have been totally deserved but take

it offline.

 

This is by-the-book results of Munchausen-by-Internet, folks, and

this forum didn't even EXIST until afterward. Let's keep cooler heads

and agree to disagree.

 

 

586 From: "Patti"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 5:28pm

Subject: Re: apology patti_wells@...

Send Email

 

> 2) Don't you notice that you are helping him become the focus of

this

> forum?

 

Holy smokes, Jon!

I didn't even realize what I was doing until you said it!

 

Thank you!

*going back to lurking*

 

;-Patti

 

 

587 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 6:04pm

Subject: Re: Separate corners. NOW. okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

> This is by-the-book results of Munchausen-by-Internet, folks, and

> this forum didn't even EXIST until afterward. Let's keep cooler

heads

> and agree to disagree.

 

Thanks...

I'd really like to keep discussing the Debbie issue, and find out

what everyone got.

 

  • Again I got suspicious over a local newspaper that "suddenly"

cropped up and backed up everything that people were hypothesizing up

until then. (We all searched Kansas, Oklahoma and Florida newspapers

for Kaycee's obits on Metafilter the night before Debbie's

confession... I certainly couldn't find a link on Kansas.Com or ).

 

*Kristen (Sperare) got me thinking that there's a possibility that

Debbie might also be a fabrication. First brought in to back up

Kaycee's stories when people thought she was a fraud last year. Now

a scapegoat after it all fell apart.

 

  • The MSNBC article, is poorly written, in my non-journalistic

opinion. It discussed blogging like it was written by an insider, I

found it strange that it didn't explain what a weblog was to the rest

of the internet world. Julie Fullbright's family asked not to be

identified, and yet her picture is plastered on the page.

 

Peabody Gazzette confirmed that there is a Debbie Swenson, and the

town of Peabody Kansas could really give a rat's ass about the

situation.

 

I found both articles to be "too convenient".

 

It's possible that Bob Sullivan simply took Saundra Mitchell's copy

of the account and just ran it. The Peabody Gazzette (who was also

contacted by Saundra Mitchell) is obviously in dire need of a

webmaster that checks links.


I've done a similar prank in which I've posed as someone else, and

when the trail got too hot, I've killed them off and openly condemned

them on my site... I was hoping I could add a little insight here.

 

Or is everyone happy with their findings?

 

I'd like to know who Saundra Mitchell is. That is... in no way,

shape or form, an accusation... but she seems to know a lot about

what's going on. She seems to have a journalistic background, and

I'm just curious about where she got her findings.

 

 

588 From: "Kristin"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 1:18pm

Subject: Re: Re: Separate corners. NOW. tokristin@...

Send Email

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

> I'd like to know who Saundra Mitchell is. That is... in no way,

> shape or form, an accusation... but she seems to know a lot about

> what's going on. She seems to have a journalistic background, and

> I'm just curious about where she got her findings.

 

Shouldn't you be referring to her, then, as the "Saundra Mitchell

Construct?" :)

 

Don't you'all start 'Scoobying' her, please, for bringing you the story -

she is a *very* well respected member of several Online Journal

communities, and in addition to the writing she puts up on her site, she has

written screen and tele-plays, much of it crime/cop stuff. I would assume

that the extensive research she has done on law enforcement and

case-handling left her in good stead to uncover this story.

 

 

Kristin Thomas ("Construct", pending.)

http://www.sperare.com

 

 

589 From: saundra@...

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 6:52pm

Subject: Re: Separate corners. NOW. saundra@...

Send Email

 

>

> Don't you'all start 'Scoobying' her, please, for bringing you the

story -

> she is a *very* well respected member of several Online Journal

 

Thank you for the defense, Kristin, but you know what? If people would

like to Scooby me, they're more than welcome, because I have nothing

to hide. My name is Saundra Leigh Mitchell Walters. I currently live,

and have always lived, in Indianapolis or its suburbs my entire life.

I only use my maiden name professionally and online. I attended Lewis

W. Gilfoy Elementary, Shortridge Junior High, and graduated from

Lawrence North High School in Lawrence, Indiana in 1991. I have one

year of college at Vincennes University in Vincennes, Indiana,

focusing on Fine Arts.

 

I worked for the Lawrence Journal/Ad Courier for one summer in 1991, I

had a brief, embarrassing career in the military and washed out, got

married, had a baby, and except for a brief foray into car sales with

Blossom Chevrolet in Indianapolis, have mostly stayed home to be a

mother and housewife since then.

 

Professionally, I have been a guest on WZPL Radio 99.5,

Indianapolis as an expert on Urban Legends. You can see my written

work in The Familiar Magazine (Bedlam: City of Castigates, a

cross-platform Role Playing module, various product reviews) @Internet

Magazine (The New User's Guide to Netiquette,) Poems Niederngasse (No

Colder,) Ink Junkies (Comic book art reviews,) and on the "Blood"

album by a Malaysian pop-goth band, Spiral Kinetic Circus- I wrote

the lyrics to their song "Drink."

 

My script (a pilot for a cop show) 20:13 "Thirty Three Cents" placed

as a Semi-Finalist in the American Accolades screenwriting contest,

and as a quarterfinalist at Scriptapalooza, and I recently won the

GaeRose Short Screenplay contest for my short film script "Cross."

Another cop show spec, "The Blue Line" is being packaged to be sent to

Sienna Films in Toronto, I don't know if they'll pick it up, but I'm

hoping they do. I have worked with Dreaming Tree Films on their "Book

of Stories" series, though ultimately, none of my scripts were

produced.

 

The only reason I know "a lot" about what's going on is that my name

is the one that got bandied around first, so the reporters were

calling me, and the newspapers were linking to me. It's not hard to

follow the referring URLs Sitemeter provides on my site.

 

Even though I have pointed out to everyone I talked to that

MetaFilter did all the investigative work, and my contribution was

only doubting aloud and finding a lack of evidence of a death, the

reporters choose to cover what they cover. If you'd like to go back

and read the MetaFilter threads, and these threads here, you can see

commentary from me on mistakes they've made, and you can see the

changes they made after I called back to clarify the situation.

 

You're more than welcome to believe that I made up Peabody, Kansas,

everyone who works at the Gazette, Debbie, Randall, John Styn, Kaycee,

Bob Sullivan, and that I have vast, multimedia connections to pull

off a hoax of that magnitude. One would wonder why I wouldn't use

these absolutely amazing connections to get a bloody agent, but

hey, it's your fantasy world, you make up a motive for me. You would

be wrong, but you are welcome to believe it. Your saying it doesn't

make it the truth.

 

If anyone besides Eric has any doubts as to my existence, drop me a

note off list, and I'll give you a call. You can even watch me talk to

you on the phone from my webcam.

 

Saundra

 

 

590 From: "gOdOfMiScHiEf"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 7:02pm

Subject: Re: Separate corners. NOW. okeyloki@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> If anyone besides Eric has any doubts as to my existence,

 

When did I say I doubted your existence? I simply asked where you

got your findings, as apparently you were the source for both stories.

 

You answered it.

 

After following the links on Sperare's site, I found your site.

 

I just knew the second I was going name a name, someone was going to

take it as an accusation.

 

Jesus, the hostility in here.

 

- Eric the janitor -

 

 

591 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 7:56pm

Subject: Re: Separate corners. NOW. mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "gOdOfMiScHiEf" wrote:

> Julie Fullbright's family asked not to be identified, and yet

> her picture is plastered on the page.

 

The first version of that story was published by MSNBC before

Fullbright's identity was discovered. They added the part about her

mother not wanting their names used a day later.

 

 

592 From: acridrabbit@...

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 8:01pm

Subject: Re: Separate corners. NOW. acridrabbit@...

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--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

 

>>Don't you'all start 'Scoobying' her, please, for bringing you the

>>story - she is a *very* well respected member of several Online

>>Journal

 

> Thank you for the defense, Kristin, but you know what? If people

would like to Scooby me, they're more than welcome, because I have

nothing to hide.

 

I'd just like to say, Go Saundra! Woo-hoo! Girl, you write like a

house afire.

 

That is all.

 

 

593 From:

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 8:06pm

Subject: Re: Re: Separate corners. NOW. jr@...

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I'd be first in line for tickets for the virtual boxing match. I think Saundra would win.

Don't you'all start 'Scoobying' her, please, for bringing you the

story - she is a *very* well respected member of several Online

Journal

 

> Thank you for the defense, Kristin, but you know what? If people

would like to Scooby me, they're more than welcome, because I have

nothing to hide.

 

I'd just like to say, Go Saundra! Woo-hoo! Girl, you write like a

house afire.

 

That is all.

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

594 From: the summer baby

Date: Sat May 26, 2001 11:59pm

Subject: Re: Re: Separate corners. NOW. summerof1971@...

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And also, he added to his statement that he wasn't

asking about her for negative reasons. Jeez, what is

with you people? Why is everyone so ready to jump on

one person because he offers and opinion that differs

from the masses?

 

And before I get accused of being one of Eric's many

personalities or whatever the fuck I'm not.

 

Summer

--- gOdOfMiScHiEf wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > If anyone besides Eric has any doubts as to my

> existence,

>

> When did I say I doubted your existence? I simply

> asked where you

> got your findings, as apparently you were the source

> for both stories.

>

> You answered it.

>

> After following the links on Sperare's site, I found

> your site.

>

> I just knew the second I was going name a name,

> someone was going to

> take it as an accusation.

>

> Jesus, the hostility in here.

>

> - Eric the janitor -

>

>

 

 

______________________________________________

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595 From: yahoo@...

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 1:13am

Subject: Re: Separate corners. NOW. yahoo@...

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--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., the summer baby wrote:

> And also, he added to his statement that he wasn't

> asking about her for negative reasons. Jeez, what is

> with you people? Why is everyone so ready to jump on

> one person because he offers and opinion that differs

> from the masses?

>

> And before I get accused of being one of Eric's many

> personalities or whatever the fuck I'm not.

>

> Summer

 

Not to defend any particular camp, but it can be beneficial to remember that many people have had interactions outside of this arena that the newer members are not aware of, so the hostilities can seem even more out of the blue.

 

Summer, there are pre-existing relationships (and therefore wounds) here. You are seeing the results of those relationships, not the normal reaction that people have when exposed to a different perspective. I hope that helps to know.

 

:) Suzanne

 

 

596 From: the summer baby

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 1:39am

Subject: Re: Re: Separate corners. NOW. summerof1971@...

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that's all fine and good but I don't think Dan created

this forum for people that don't like Eric to attack

him. I thought this was supposed to be about Kaycee

Nicole and all that drama.

--- yahoo@... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., the summer baby

> wrote:

> > And also, he added to his statement that he wasn't

> > asking about her for negative reasons. Jeez, what

> is

> > with you people? Why is everyone so ready to jump

> on

> > one person because he offers and opinion that

> differs

> > from the masses?

> >

> > And before I get accused of being one of Eric's

> many

> > personalities or whatever the fuck I'm not.

> >

> > Summer

>

> Not to defend any particular camp, but it can be

> beneficial to remember that many people have had

> interactions outside of this arena that the newer

> members are not aware of, so the hostilities can

> seem even more out of the blue.

>

> Summer, there are pre-existing relationships (and

> therefore wounds) here. You are seeing the results

> of those relationships, not the normal reaction that

> people have when exposed to a different perspective.

> I hope that helps to know.

>

> :) Suzanne

>

>

 

 

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597 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 1:49am

Subject: Re: Separate corners. NOW. sdenbes1@...

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--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., the summer baby wrote:

> that's all fine and good but I don't think Dan created

> this forum for people that don't like Eric to attack

> him. I thought this was supposed to be about Kaycee

> Nicole and all that drama.

 

I think the problem is that the subject of Kaycee Nicole has pretty

much run its course, and like most discussion threads this one has

mutated.

 

 

598 From: the summer baby

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 2:01am

Subject: Re: Re: Separate corners. NOW. summerof1971@...

Send Email

 

You are probably right. I'll unsubscribe now.

--- sdenbes1@... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., the summer baby

> wrote:

> > that's all fine and good but I don't think Dan

> created

> > this forum for people that don't like Eric to

> attack

> > him. I thought this was supposed to be about

> Kaycee

> > Nicole and all that drama.

>

> I think the problem is that the subject of Kaycee

> Nicole has pretty

> much run its course, and like most discussion

> threads this one has

> mutated.

>

>

 

 

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599 From: feliksbigiron@...

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 4:46am

Subject: Is this all there is? feliksbigiron@...

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I think I am pulling the pin for the last time as well...

 

I hope 'Debbie' suffers a lot for this.

 

 

600 From: metrocake@...

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 6:43am

Subject: Re: Is this all there is? metrocake@...

Send Email

 

At message 600...

 

Probably, yes. This *is* all there is.

 

:D

 

Unless there's more news to share...

 

-- roe

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., feliksbigiron@y... wrote:

> I think I am pulling the pin for the last time as well...

>

> I hope 'Debbie' suffers a lot for this.

 

 

601 From: "Cassie"

Date: Mon May 28, 2001 3:10am

Subject: media coverage star8@...

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The Herald Sun, trashy Melbourne (Australia) newspaper carried Kaycee's story, in print and online.

 

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,2042940%255E663,00.html

 

 

 

602 From: "sammy"

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 11:46am

Subject: Re: media coverage vampkitty@...

Send Email

 

I was going to mention that - I only just got around to reading

today's Herald Sun - I'm in Melbourne (it's 9:42pm), and I expected

maybe a little snippet in their Sunday internet section, but it was

actually about half of page 11. All things considered, I thought the

article was pretty well-written... that is to say that the important

points were kept intact and most of the 'facts' were in check with

what's been covered here (as opposed to, say, that first MSNBC

article).

 

Must say, it still kind of shocked me to see it given 'priority' type

coverage in a Melbourne rag...

 

-sammy

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Cassie" wrote:

> The Herald Sun, trashy Melbourne (Australia) newspaper carried

Kaycee's story, in print and online.

>

> http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,2042940%

255E663,00.html

 

 

603 From: "Joe"

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 2:07pm

Subject: Re: Is this all there is? sardines15@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., metrocake@y... wrote:

> At message 600...

>

> Probably, yes. This *is* all there is.

>

> :D

>

> Unless there's more news to share...

>

> -- roe

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., feliksbigiron@y... wrote:

> > I think I am pulling the pin for the last time as well...

> >

> > I hope 'Debbie' suffers a lot for this.

 

Yah, it has gotten to be something of a dead horse.

 

 

604 From: "Dominique"

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 4:25pm

Subject: In reply to message 228 dominique@...

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I greatly admire what you wrote. Cynicism is a brilliant defense mechanism that most adults develop over time in order to protect themselves. In fact a healthy dose of skepticism on the ‘Net or otherwise has more or less become an essential quality. I too had never heard of this Kaycee blog until all this hoopla to uncover the truth erupted. However, as an outsider reading about all of this after the fact, the frenzy to expose the perpetrator was not all that impressive. What really caught my attention was to see how far those who hardly knew this fake blogs even existed, were willing to go in order to crack the case. I can understand why from a journalistic point of view some would be interested. But what about all the others who joined the fray.

Then again, isn’t that what blogging is all about, a community of online journals where people more or less compete for attention? From what I’ve observed, no matter how trivial the subject matter is, the more readers visit the more admired and respected the writer becomes. Which brings me back to Debbie’s apparent original intent. This all seems to me like nothing more than a quest for acceptance and love, and evidence as to what lengths some are willing to go in order to feel worthy of such attention. I agree with those who say that the only REAL people hurt by all of this are few and far between. I’ve spoken to many friends about this story that have never heard of blogging. Their reaction was actually quite placid. In other words, I barely got nod or heard the clichéd “what’s the world coming to” reaction.

 

Those of us who’ve been a round a while have witnessed many examples of Internet deception over the years. Married people for instance, pretending to be successful singles, looking for thrills borders on the absolute ridiculous. Little gifts and cards are constantly being exchanged, yet as far as I know, nobody has ever been hospitalized for the disease of humiliation. Loosing face is a real bitch, but in time we’ve all had to bear our shame as gracefully as we could. TV newsmagazine programs thrive on stories of Internet child abductions and the like, but never report the good and positive aspects of the Internet. Judging by the success of these idiot so-called “reality” shows, we seem to have become a society of thrill seekers who dismiss the virtuous as boring, and who prefer concentrating on the sensational and the malicious flourishing in the chaos of it all. So how is this latest scandal any different? My only REAL sorrow is for those who are undergoing legitimate crises in their lives, and who will most likely be seriously penalized because of this one little story. The only thing that can prevent this from happening is if Debbie is forced to walk down Main Street wearing nothing but tar and feathers. I don’t know about you all, but if I weren’t so busy dealing with my own health concerns, which in the face of all of this I'm loathe to mention in any of the forums I belong to, I’d be willing to pluck the 1st duck.

 

Dominique

 

 

 

 

605 From: saundra@...

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 4:51pm

Subject: Editorial from the Newton Kansan saundra@...

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This is the guy I originally called, looking around for obits. Since

he'd been nice to me, after Debbie had confessed, I called him back

and told him what had happened. He asked for more materials because he

thought it might make a good story. This guy had a six day lead on the

story, and didn't do anything with it, until this. I think it's

especially funny that he didn't choose to post it in the online

version of the paper- my friend from Peabody faxed it. Typos all mine,

forgive me, it's rather long.

 

Saundra


 

Come on people! Don't be so darned gullible!

by Chris Strunk, managing editor

 

Many of my Internet suspicions were confirmd this week, through a web

tale that hit me way too close to home. Somehow I got involved.

 

In some way, I was attached to a world of Internet lies and Web

weirdos who have nothing better to do than investigate other web

weirdos.

 

Here's an idea: get offline and do something that matters.

 

I got a call the other day from someone idenitfying herself as Saundra

Mitchell. She was "researching" the story of a young woman who claimed

to have links to Newton. In an underworld of internet journals and

logs, this woman and her mother wrote for gullible Internet consumers

the young woman's story of how she was battling leukemia.

 

She finally died this week, or so it seemed.

 

It was all a hoax. And there is this huge group of people out there

who can't stand that they were burt so badly by this woman's year olg,

heart-wrenching story. So, they had to investigate, putting their web

feelers outto everyone connected to the INternet.

 

They finally exposed the woman writing the faulty fairy tale. She's

from Peabody. A forty year old, probably very bored mother of two. She

admitted in a newspaper report that she did it.

 

She said that she felt guilty, and didn't mean to hurt or decieve

anyone.

 

Let me say a few things about this tory. First of all, it isn't a

story. It's a dumb mix of stupidity that got more stupid as the days

wore on. It was stupid to do what the hoaxer did. It was even more

stupid for a bunch of people to believe it. And it was downright

idiotic for people to "investigate" it.

 

Who cares?

 

Not me. But for the same of argument, let's say it were true. This

nineteen year old woman, who is fighting a terrible disease, and the

woman's mother, decide to share with the world their struggles.

 

There's nothing wrong witth that. I believe there is a benefit in

talking about tragedy. I believe that the sharing problems--

especially health related ones-- with others publicaly helps not only

the one suffering, but others who make be in the same situation. It

gives a not-in-this-alone kind of comfort.

 

But when we run across stories like these on the Internet, should we

believe them?

 

My suggestion? Consider the source.

 

Did you see it on the Web site of a reputable organization? Or was it

posted on someone's homeade site, or a chat room where antyhing goes?

 

Shake yourselves, people. Quit being so darned gullable.

 

Anyway, this web "investigator" called me the other day and asked if

the newspaper had heard of a nineteen year old girl battling meukemia,

then finally dying. I told her we hand't.

 

That was that, I thought.

 

Then she reported online the results of her "investigation." With some

help from others, she "exposed" the true hoaxer. It was 19 yer old

Kaycee Swenson.

 

In an e-mail to me, the "investigator", Saundra Mitchell, talked about

the "inconsistencies" in Kaycee's onine journal entries, about

Kaycee's mom misstating her daughter's birthday, and other things that

"raised the "investigator"s eyebrow.

 

Mitchell went so far as to examine time stamps on journal entries

filed online. Also in her "report", Mitchell quoted me as saying I

hadn't heard about the 19 year old's situation, and that it "hadn't

crossed my desk."

 

So, who's the hoaxer? What's the true hoax? Is it the Peabody woman,

or the people exposing her? Are the "investigators" even telling the

truth? Is the Peabody woman working in concert with the

"investigators" to fool even more people- like media outlets?

 

What's so sad about this whole thing is this stuff is likely happening

every day, somewehere in the huge, anonymous world of the INternet,

where there are simply no guarantees and literally no controls.

 

Let it go, already.

 

It's not a crime. The only thing it really hurts is that bigpool of

information we call the Internet, which, in my opinion can afford to

take a few hits nonw and then.

 

It's deservedly vulnerable. But we don't have to be.

 

 

606 From: dhartung@...

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 4:52pm

Subject: Scotland on Sunday dhartung@...

 

Bonus points for mis-spelling last name as "Svenson", that's a new

one. Seems to be cribbed from other articles like MSNBC's.

 

 

607 From: "kv"

Date: Sun May 27, 2001 5:04pm

Subject: Re: Editorial from the Newton Kansan damnation@...

Send Email

 

>

> Here's an idea: get offline and do something that matters.

>

 

 

he sounds like a right royal net-hater, just like my parents.

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