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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kaycee-Nicole

 

kaycee-nicole · Kaycee Nicole Forum

 

212 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:11am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC sarapture@...

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The copyright in the photo is held by the photographer most likely

(unless it is a work for hire but that is the topic for another post).

Printing a picture in a newspaper is not a commercial use and this case

certainly falls under the fair use exception of the copyright act, as

far as copyright goes. see http://fairuse.stanford.edu for more info.

There are other PRIVACY issues outside the realm of copyright, however,

that may be raised and for which fair use does not apply.

 

ok, i guess in the context of this all i should come clean here. i'm

not really 19 and i don't live in sparks, nv. I am, however, female. I

feel much better now. ;)

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Rory Ewins wrote:

> >

> > She's the subject of the pictures, not the photographer. She

> doesn't

> > own the copyright. Someone does - I guess for some of those

> pictures,

> > it's Julie's family, or even Debbie.

>

> Julie would have to give a model release to the photographer to be

> published or he would have had to certify he had copyright on the

> photo to let others use it for commercial purposes.

 

 

213 From: Rory Ewins

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:16am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC rory@...

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>Julie would have to give a model release to the photographer to be

>published or he would have had to certify he had copyright on the

>photo to let others use it for commercial purposes.

 

Yeah, for the studio shot. I was thinking more of the private snaps

of basketball games, 'tomato girl' and so on.

 

 

214 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:16am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC sarapture@...

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And no, there would be no need for a model release necessarily nor

would the photog have to certify any copyright interest in the photo

per se...Anybody using the photo for commercial purposes would

certainly be wise to ask a photog to do so, but it's not required...but

again, none of the uses in the news are commercial purposes. A

commercial purpose would be, for instance, if they took the julie

basketball picture and used it on a box of wheaties. Even posting on a

website is not a commercial use...Illustrating a news story most

certainly is a non-commercial use within the meaning of the law...

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Rory Ewins wrote:

> >Julie would have to give a model release to the photographer to be

> >published or he would have had to certify he had copyright on the

> >photo to let others use it for commercial purposes.

>

> Yeah, for the studio shot. I was thinking more of the private snaps

> of basketball games, 'tomato girl' and so on.

 

 

215 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:19am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC raysmj@...

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--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Rory Ewins wrote:

> >

> > She's the subject of the pictures, not the photographer. She

> doesn't

> > own the copyright. Someone does - I guess for some of those

> pictures,

> > it's Julie's family, or even Debbie.

>

> Julie would have to give a model release to the photographer to be

> published or he would have had to certify he had copyright on the

> photo to let others use it for commercial purposes.

 

Not for photojournalism. You submit to a newspaper photograph, you

submit to its use in a newspaper and it can be used anywhere with the

OK of the owner (which isn't necessarily the photographer). No one in

most cases gets paid -- in fact, paying subjects is considered

completely unethical within mainstream U.S. journalism. The "model

releases" are used in for-hire photography of the sort used for

advertising, fashion magazines, stock photography and the like.

 

More info can be found here, via the National Press Photographers

Association:

http://www.nppa.org/services/bizpract/copyrightdefault.html

 

 

216 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:20am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Rory Ewins wrote:

> >

> > She's the subject of the pictures, not the photographer. She

> doesn't

> > own the copyright. Someone does - I guess for some of those

> pictures,

> > it's Julie's family, or even Debbie.

>

> Julie would have to give a model release to the photographer to be

> published or he would have had to certify he had copyright on the

> photo to let others use it for commercial purposes.

 

I think it's not so much a question of whether it is actionable, as *who* the action would be against.

 

If Able puts my photo up without my permission, and then Baker uses that photo because Able's use of it was newsworthy, I think I can sue Able, but not Baker. Baker is covered by "fair use" but Able isn't even after it becomes newsworthy. (I think.)

 

In other words, Julie can't start an action against MSNBC, but this would be further fodder for a hypothetical action against Debbie.

 

I've been trying to think about what kinds of legal problems Debbie is potentially facing. So far I've got this (but I'm not a lawyer):

 

1. Crime: mail fraud

2. Crime: identity theft

3. Civil action: libel (Julie)

4. Civil action: use of photo without permission (Julie)

5. Civil action: fraud (everyone who sent gifts, class action)

6. Crime: contributing to the delinquency of a minor

(for encouraging Kelli's participation in this during the

second phase after Debbie had taken over)

7: Civil action: violation of copyright (Julie)

 

There may also be problems associated with the fact that many of the pictures of Julie which were used were taken when she was under 18. That opens all sorts of strange extra laws associated with protection of minors.

 

We have anyone with a legal background here who might want to comment?

 

You might find this interesting:

 

http://cnet.com/webbuilding/0-3885-8-4500031-1.html?tag=st.cn.1.tlpg.3885-8-4500031-1

 

 

217 From: "Eve"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:21am

Subject: Re: Photo of Debbie? & request for Gracemont links angelwng@...

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Thanks Tiffany! The connection is very clear from that. Great find!

 

... Once that was found, I remembered seeing a

> picture of "Kaycee" with the number 10 on her uniform. Found out

#10 was

> Julie, and found a picture on that, at the same time someone else

hit Google

> or something and found the snu picture :-)

>

> Tiffany Ring-Mulroy

> * Deco-Rations Design

> http://www.deco-rations.com

>

> * Intellectual Suicide

> http://www.intellectualsuicide.com

 

 

218 From: velocityiseverything@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:26am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC velocityiseverything@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Rory Ewins wrote:

> I think it's not so much a question of whether it is actionable, as

*who* the action would be against.

>

> If Able puts my photo up without my permission, and then Baker uses

that photo because Able's use of it was newsworthy, I think I can sue

Able, but not Baker. Baker is covered by "fair use" but Able isn't

even after it becomes newsworthy. (I think.)

 

Yah, but what about that Cain guy sneaking up on you with an iron

sickel slewing right and left lest you see him out of the corner of

your eye?

 

 

219 From: Rory Ewins

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:28am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC rory@...

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>She rented a P.O. box from the U.S. Postal Service and used it on a

>Web site where she did business. That element had to be missing too

>(for those who are scheming at home), otherwise her name was

>available to the public for the asking.

 

You're right, of course. And if she'd left off the PO Box, any

photos, and any other means of verification, well, you'd have to ask

- would she have been so readily believed? I.e., if she had

consistently refused any form of non-email contact? I doubt it. Her

story might well have come unstuck much more quickly.

 

So in a way, the PO Box was the perfect cover (for as long as it

lasted): people saw an address on the weblog and thought 'Well,

that's a real person'. Even though it's a PO Box, most of us would

know (or assume) that those can be traced, so perhaps we also assume

that its traceability implies honesty - 'I'm not making it impossible

for you to find me, just not making it too easy so that weirdos don't

turn up on my front door.' *Most* of us keep our street addresses off

our own weblogs and sites, so the lack of one for 'Kaycee' didn't

ring any alarm bells.

 

Man. The talking-points raised by this case are just endless, in so

many directions.

 

 

220 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:34am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC raysmj@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Rory Ewins wrote:

> > >

> > > She's the subject of the pictures, not the photographer. She

> > doesn't

> > > own the copyright. Someone does - I guess for some of those

> > pictures,

> > > it's Julie's family, or even Debbie.

> >

> > Julie would have to give a model release to the photographer to

be

> > published or he would have had to certify he had copyright on the

> > photo to let others use it for commercial purposes.

>

> I think it's not so much a question of whether it is actionable, as

*who* the action would be against.

>

> If Able puts my photo up without my permission, and then Baker uses

that photo because Able's use of it was newsworthy, I think I can sue

Able, but not Baker. Baker is covered by "fair use" but Able isn't

even after it becomes newsworthy. (I think.)

>

> In other words, Julie can't start an action against MSNBC, but this

would be further fodder for a hypothetical action against Debbie.

>

> I've been trying to think about what kinds of legal problems Debbie

is potentially facing. So far I've got this (but I'm not a lawyer):

>

> 1. Crime: mail fraud

> 2. Crime: identity theft

> 3. Civil action: libel (Julie)

Libel is a type of defamation, first off, which implies a false

statement(s) that harms a person's standing within a community (in

short, you'll be hated and have people throw large pieces of fruit at

you, spit in your face, burn crosses on your lawn, fail to invite you

to parties of the sort you'd been invited to before, etc.) or or

professional reputation. And I don't see how Julie was defamed here,

much less defamed with actual malice (that is, willfully and with ill

intent), which is required in almost all U.S. cases. Such a suit

would be thrown out of court.

 

 

221 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:42am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC captcrackpipe@...

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add stalking to that, apparently.

 

> 1. Crime: mail fraud

> 2. Crime: identity theft

> 3. Civil action: libel (Julie)

> 4. Civil action: use of photo without permission (Julie)

> 5. Civil action: fraud (everyone who sent gifts, class action)

> 6. Crime: contributing to the delinquency of a minor

> (for encouraging Kelli's participation in this during the

> second phase after Debbie had taken over)

> 7: Civil action: violation of copyright (Julie)

 

 

222 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:42am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC sarapture@...

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Actually, I think actual malice is only required when the person being

defamed is a public figure. I think the standard for private citizens

is knowing falsehood or reckless disregard for the truth...It's been

almost 10 years since my torts course in law school though so i can't

remember!

 

With regard to defamation, I think that actually the wrong here would

be a different type of privacy violation - false association or false

light invasion of privacy..again, it's been awhile...Anyone up for some

further detective look up the law of privacy? (maybe Prosser & Keeton

on Torts is available online now)...the privacy realm is where you will

find most of your civil violations here methinks...

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Ray Mikell" wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> > > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Rory Ewins wrote:

> > > >

> > > > She's the subject of the pictures, not the photographer. She

> > > doesn't

> > > > own the copyright. Someone does - I guess for some of those

> > > pictures,

> > > > it's Julie's family, or even Debbie.

> > >

> > > Julie would have to give a model release to the photographer to

> be

> > > published or he would have had to certify he had copyright on the

> > > photo to let others use it for commercial purposes.

> >

> > I think it's not so much a question of whether it is actionable, as

> *who* the action would be against.

> >

> > If Able puts my photo up without my permission, and then Baker uses

> that photo because Able's use of it was newsworthy, I think I can sue

> Able, but not Baker. Baker is covered by "fair use" but Able isn't

> even after it becomes newsworthy. (I think.)

> >

> > In other words, Julie can't start an action against MSNBC, but this

> would be further fodder for a hypothetical action against Debbie.

> >

> > I've been trying to think about what kinds of legal problems Debbie

> is potentially facing. So far I've got this (but I'm not a lawyer):

> >

> > 1. Crime: mail fraud

> > 2. Crime: identity theft

> > 3. Civil action: libel (Julie)

> Libel is a type of defamation, first off, which implies a false

> statement(s) that harms a person's standing within a community (in

> short, you'll be hated and have people throw large pieces of fruit at

> you, spit in your face, burn crosses on your lawn, fail to invite you

> to parties of the sort you'd been invited to before, etc.) or or

> professional reputation. And I don't see how Julie was defamed here,

> much less defamed with actual malice (that is, willfully and with ill

> intent), which is required in almost all U.S. cases. Such a suit

> would be thrown out of court.

 

 

223 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:48am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC sarapture@...

Send Email

 

Ok, and while I'm at it, let me comment on the rest of the list (yes, I

am a lawyer...)

There is no civil action that i'm aware of for use of a photo without

permission...though perhaps a criminal action for gaining the photos

under false pretenses (a form of theft)...

 

Contributing to delinquency! That's a good one! How about child abuse

too (psychological torment to her real kids...hey! I killed your

sister!)

 

Other things that come to mind - possibly some computer crimes...there

is a separate class of crimes for stuff committed using a computer in

addition to the standard hacking and virus stuff...so maybe something

in that realm...

 

No copyright infringement for the MSNBC article, but potential

copyright infringement for the use of the Julie picks by Debbie on the

websites and also if she made COPIES to send to people...but this

wouldn't be a claim that Julie would have, it would be one the

photographer would have....

 

 

Ok, i'm done...just thinking out loud here...

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "You may call me sammy." <

captcrackpipe@y...> wrote:

> add stalking to that, apparently.

>

> > 1. Crime: mail fraud

> > 2. Crime: identity theft

> > 3. Civil action: libel (Julie)

> > 4. Civil action: use of photo without permission (Julie)

> > 5. Civil action: fraud (everyone who sent gifts, class action)

> > 6. Crime: contributing to the delinquency of a minor

> > (for encouraging Kelli's participation in this during the

> > second phase after Debbie had taken over)

> > 7: Civil action: violation of copyright (Julie)

 

 

224 From: "simply caren."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:52am

Subject: irc! caren@...

Send Email

 

we've started #kaycee on efnet irc.

 

if any of you want to join...download mirc from www.mirc.com and come

and join us!

 

also best servers to use are irc.ins.net.uk, and

irc.solidstreaming.net

 

thanks!

 

 

225 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:55am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Ray Mikell" wrote:

> > 3. Civil action: libel (Julie)

> Libel is a type of defamation, first off, which implies a false

> statement(s) that harms a person's standing within a community (in

> short, you'll be hated and have people throw large pieces of fruit at

> you, spit in your face, burn crosses on your lawn, fail to invite you

> to parties of the sort you'd been invited to before, etc.) or or

> professional reputation. And I don't see how Julie was defamed here,

> much less defamed with actual malice (that is, willfully and with ill

> intent), which is required in almost all U.S. cases. Such a suit

> would be thrown out of court.

 

Well, as I said, I'm not a lawyer. But I though public humiliation was a form of libel, and Julie is going to get a lot of grief about this from the people in her town, and from her classmates when she returns to college.

 

"Oh, you're the one who put on the hoax." "No, I'm the one whose photos were stolen by someone else to put on the hoax."

 

Yes, she's innocent, but she's going to be hearing about it for a long time. It seems to me as if that would be actionable.

 

But I'm not a lawyer.

 

 

226 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:09am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC raysmj@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Sara" wrote:

> Actually, I think actual malice is only required when the person

being

> defamed is a public figure. I think the standard for private

citizens

> is knowing falsehood or reckless disregard for the truth...It's

been

> almost 10 years since my torts course in law school though so i

can't

> remember!

 

Yes, true, although it's much more complicated than even that, if I

remember correctly. "Reckless disregard" and "actual malice" are

actually interrelated. Actual malice involves knowledge of falsity of

reckless disregard for the truth. This applies not only to public

figures however, but cases involving a "public concern." This

applies to darn near anything printed in a newspaper or web site.

Truly private cases would require common law malice, I believe. Not

certain, but in any case libel is a form of defamation, and I don't

see any such thing involved here.

 

 

227 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:18am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Sara" wrote:

> Actually, I think actual malice is only required when the person being

> defamed is a public figure. I think the standard for private citizens

> is knowing falsehood or reckless disregard for the truth...It's been

> almost 10 years since my torts course in law school though so i can't

> remember!

>

> With regard to defamation, I think that actually the wrong here would

> be a different type of privacy violation - false association or false

> light invasion of privacy..again, it's been awhile...Anyone up for some

> further detective look up the law of privacy? (maybe Prosser & Keeton

> on Torts is available online now)...the privacy realm is where you will

> find most of your civil violations here methinks...

 

OK, I've found some things:

 

http://library.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getfile.pl?FILE=firms/graycary/gcwf000026&TITLE=Subject&TOPIC=Injury%20%20Tort%20Law_Defamation/Libel/Slander&FILENAME=injurytortlaw_1_213

 

(Sorry for the really long link.)

 

'Defamation is a statement of fact, not opinion, which is false, unprivileged, and harms another's reputation by exposing him or her to hatred or ridicule, or which causes her or him to be shunned or avoided, or which has a tendency to injure him or her in occupation or business.'

 

I think that "ridicule" is extremely likely here. Hatred is unlikely but that is not required. The fact is that Julie has been publicly humiliated, irrevocably tied to a major scandal.

 

'"False light" is another theory of legal liability similar to defamation. The only real difference between the elements of false light and defamation is that the falsehood need not be defamatory to sustain liability, but need merely be false and cause offense to a person of reasonable sensibilities. Thus, "fictionalizing" or "shading" true facts in a false, offensive way may give rise to liability, despite the fact the facts are true and not defamatory.'

 

Interestingly, it makes no mention of malice.


 

There may also be a case here for "misappropriation":

 

http://library.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getfile.pl?FILE=firms/dwt/dwt000023&TITLE=Subject&TOPIC=Injury%20%20Tort%20Law_Privacy&FILENAME=injurytortlaw_1_216

 

 

228 From: "sjc"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:25am

Subject: ruminations. garbanzo666@...

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Now that the frenzy has died down, I need to sort this mess out.

 

So I didn't know the Kaycee blog even existed until she "died." I

did not care either way. Personally, I find the whole notion of

publicizing one's terminal illness a bit baffling, but I'm a very

private person, and I think I can see why someone would chronicle the

trials of their struggle and how they face death for all to see. But

I had absolutely no connection to this "person."

 

So here I am, not 24 hours after I was in a chat room screaming my

fool head off about how Debbie was obviously in love with Halcyon,

and hearing Matt relay what the CNN stringer was telling him, and I

have to wonder why the hell I cared.

 

"There's no justice like angry mob justice."

 

True, there were people who invested themselves in

Kaycee's "struggle." And they were very earnest in their concern and

mourning, so I will not criticize them. I don't think it's wrong to

be cynical, but it is good to see that emotional connections are

possible over such a cold and digital medium. I think maybe the

blogging/journalling community may need to toughen up a bit, but hey,

I have a touch of cynicism in me.

 

And there were people who sent Kaycee gifts and whatnot. Quite

frankly, I'm baffled by this, but then again, I have a hard time

remembering my dad's birthday, so I won't judge anyone's motives

about that. I do think, however, that any cries for justice

regarding mail fraud are specious at best and a justification to

indulge in a little privacy invasion at worst.. There was no overt

solicitation, from what I understand, and if there was an email

circulated about Kaycee, I am led to believe it was done by a third

party. And really, if someone sent money based on a forwarded email,

I've got some penis enlargement spam for them.

 

And of course, there were people like BWG and Halcyon, who completely

opened their hearts and devoted so much time and energy to a

fictional person. I think Halcyon will recover rather quick - he

seems to have that kind of boundless energy. BWG seems like the kind

of guy who will brood on this for a long, long time. Again, these

are all - shock! - impressions of people based off a web site. Which

are still as valid as they were before we knew about Debbie Swensen.

 

So that leaves the rest of us, who fell into this weekend frenzy

scouring the Internet for any fucking clues as to what was going on.

 

Why? Why did we go absolutely apeshit?

 

Why, the thrill of the hunt, and a puzzle that was begging to be

solved. I was a damn busybody, betcher ass. It was compelling,

mostly because it was so goddamn weird. I've said this before: if

this was some sort of straightforward hoax where money was solicited

or something, the community would have been furious, but we wouldn't

have crossed several lines in trying to figure out "the truth." But

no, you had this woman in Kansas taking over an online avatar based

on a basketball player the family admired, and turning her into this

plastic Jesus of Leukemia, this holy savant of endless optimism in

the face of hellish adversity. And then you had the mother's blog,

some sort of meta-commentary, to add into all that. Add to that a

confession that only stirred more speculation than it ended, and you

have an enticing mix that is irrestible to a community that reacts to

the slightest beating of a butterfly's wing.

 

For a while, I was feeling some sense of accomplishment over the

investigation. We busted a fraud! Whoo-hoo! But really, what did

we do?

 

We exposed a lady in Kansas who was lying in her blog.

 

I mean, it was good detective work - making the connection with Julie

was a leap I never would have even considered - but there were so

many wild speculations occurring. It was BWG or Halcyon's fault. It

was Audra Lea, who has become the Kato Kaelin of this whole sorry

affair. She was after money. No, attention. No, love. No, it was

this or that.

 

So we made lots of noise and managed to pressure a crippled

confession out of her, and then a stringer for CNN whose day job was

reporting on aviation news interviewed her and got a more solid truth.

 

I can't help thinking that for all the mental energy I poured into

this thing, the results have been sadly lacking. I don't mean this

to be facile or whine about the lack of attention paid to me: as

much as I was ranting in the chatroom last night, I sure didn't want

to be attached to any news story. But the cries for justice and

demands for the truth ring hollow to me now.

 

People were making long-distance calls to total strangers in Kansas.

People were talking about flying there. (I doubt they were serious,

but still...) People were calling government officials.

 

All because some poor screwed-up woman in Kansas pretended for two

years to be someone else and, in her own demented way, share an

experience.

 

No, I don't want this to be a "gosh, aren't we all bad people for

doing this" email, but I think now that the frenzy has calmed down,

we should examine our roles in this, and what will result of it.

 

It sure as hell won't be a media barrage. I bought into the self-

generated hype that we would be breaking a major news story here.

But people...we're talking Geraldo-level news here. The stringer

that Matt talked to hyped him up and snowed him. Saundra's

experience and the screw-up in the MSNBC article reinforce the idea

that journalists care nothing for the truth, but everything for a

good story. Off the front page in less than a day - no one was

biting, so it got tossed onto the scrap heap. Another Internet curio.

 

And this has less to do with the status of the weblogging community

(hint: not as large/important as you think it is) and more with what

was exposed. Which was, again, some woman pretending to be a cancer

patient to spread warmth and hope to a few hundred people. To those

few hundred people, it sucks, sure, but life goes on.

 

I hope I haven't come across as reproachful or self-righteous,

because I'm certainly not. I'm just bothered by anytime I act

without thinking things through, and I think this was such a time.

And for all the energy I devoted trying to discern Debbie's motives,

I should spend some trying to understand mine.

 

In the end, I went on a wild goose chase and came away with nothing

but some sleep deprivation and the knowledge that people won't fake

cancer blogs anymore.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Now I think I'll stop thinking about Kaycee for a while.

 

-- sjc (solistrato)

 

 

229 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:29am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC sarapture@...

Send Email

 

Don't mean to burst yer bubble there detective, but the law for privacy

is different in all 50 states. ;) If you really wanna knock yerself

out have a gander at findlaw.com and check out privacy law there under

state law....And of course this is the internet, so which state's law

will apply?

 

Regarding malice, it's judicial (Supreme Court largely) opinions that

have added the layers of requirements for malice, etc., and that is not

reflected in the treatise you found. A good one for you to check out if

you're interested is Hustler vs. Falwell...that's one of the first in

the series of decisions carving the privacy law standards as I

recall...

 

Privacy law is very complicated. That's why we law folks make the big

bucks. hehe.(this isn't my field though obviously...)

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Sara" wrote:

> > Actually, I think actual malice is only required when the person being

> > defamed is a public figure. I think the standard for private citizens

> > is knowing falsehood or reckless disregard for the truth...It's been

> > almost 10 years since my torts course in law school though so i can't

> > remember!

> >

> > With regard to defamation, I think that actually the wrong here would

> > be a different type of privacy violation - false association or false

> > light invasion of privacy..again, it's been awhile...Anyone up for some

> > further detective look up the law of privacy? (maybe Prosser & Keeton

> > on Torts is available online now)...the privacy realm is where you will

> > find most of your civil violations here methinks...

>

> OK, I've found some things:

>

> http://library.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getfile.pl?FILE=firms/graycary/gcwf000026&TITLE=Subject&TOPIC=Injury%20%20Tort%20Law_Defamation/Libel/Slander&FILENAME=injurytortlaw_1_213

>

> (Sorry for the really long link.)

>

> 'Defamation is a statement of fact, not opinion, which is false, unprivileged, and harms another's reputation by exposing him or her to hatred or ridicule, or which causes her or him to be shunned or avoided, or which has a tendency to injure him or her in occupation or business.'

>

> I think that "ridicule" is extremely likely here. Hatred is unlikely but that is not required. The fact is that Julie has been publicly humiliated, irrevocably tied to a major scandal.

>

> '"False light" is another theory of legal liability similar to defamation. The only real difference between the elements of false light and defamation is that the falsehood need not be defamatory to sustain liability, but need merely be false and cause offense to a person of reasonable sensibilities. Thus, "fictionalizing" or "shading" true facts in a false, offensive way may give rise to liability, despite the fact the facts are true and not defamatory.'

>

> Interestingly, it makes no mention of malice.

>

> ---------

>

> There may also be a case here for "misappropriation":

>

> http://library.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getfile.pl?FILE=firms/dwt/dwt000023&TITLE=Subject&TOPIC=Injury%20%20Tort%20Law_Privacy&FILENAME=injurytortlaw_1_216

 

 

230 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:44am

Subject: More legal references on libel sdenbes1@...

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/CyberLaw_Course/cyberlaw.033

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/CyberLaw_Course/cyberlaw.034

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/CyberLaw_Course/cyberlaw.035

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/CyberLaw_Course/cyberlaw.036

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/CyberLaw_Course/cyberlaw.037

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/CyberLaw_Course/cyberlaw.038

 

#38 in particular is interesting, because it touches on identity theft.

 

http://www.eff.org/pub/Censorship/Academic_edu/CAF/law/libel.definitions

 

It turns out that malice is required for any libel. For public figures, the legal term is "actual malice" which is a higher standard. In this context, Julie would be considered a "private figure" which requires the lower legal hurdle "malice", but this still requires "ill will, spite" -- and that is absolutely missing here. If anything, both Debbie and Kelli idolized Julie. They published falsehoods about Julie which will cause Julie to suffer ridicule, but did so without malice.

 

Identity theft, on the other hand, may be a problem. I'll keep looking.

 

 

231 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:54am

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC raysmj@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Ray Mikell" wrote:

> > > 3. Civil action: libel (Julie)

> > Libel is a type of defamation, first off, which implies a false

> > statement(s) that harms a person's standing within a community

(in

> > short, you'll be hated and have people throw large pieces of

fruit at

> > you, spit in your face, burn crosses on your lawn, fail to invite

you

> > to parties of the sort you'd been invited to before, etc.) or or

> > professional reputation. And I don't see how Julie was defamed

here,

> > much less defamed with actual malice (that is, willfully and with

ill

> > intent), which is required in almost all U.S. cases. Such a suit

> > would be thrown out of court.

>

> Well, as I said, I'm not a lawyer. But I though public humiliation

was a form of libel, and Julie is going to get a lot of grief about

this from the people in her town, and from her classmates when she

returns to college.

 

Not a lawyer here. PoliSci doctoral student. But this might be a

borderline case. I was told for years, both in journalism school and

in years of newspaper writing (still freelance) that in libel a

person's reputation must be damaged. The Associated Press definition

is, however, "publication of writing, pictures or cartoons that

expose a person to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or

induce an ill opinion of a person, and are not true."

 

That's more expansive than the classic definition, and of course as

noted before there are all kinds of quicks of state laws, case law,

etc. Meantime, though, you're refreshing my memory a tad. In photos,

if I remember correctly, you can remove part of caption and change a

photo's meaning and be sued for libel. Then you can use the picture

for some embarassing purpose (something along the lines of say, a

feature story in the Sunday style section on STDs with your pic next

to it when you thought this was an article about quality dentistry).

But is the Julie case that bad? Have to wait and see, is all you can

do.

 

 

232 From: acridrabbit@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:59am

Subject: Re: ruminations. acridrabbit@...

Send Email

 

You, my friend, have spelled it out admirably. Yeah. Exactly. Good

job, & etc.

 

 

233 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:17am

Subject: Re: ruminations. raysmj@...

Send Email

 

Except that the story's still on the front page at MSNBC as I type,

and was a top 10 story in reader stats (which are hardly scientific).

Also, I presume that much of the "caring" was done for as much

entertainment as the hunting down of facts. And the caring-as-

entertainment is partly what led to this. I'm not going to give my

personal reasons as to thinking why, but I don't think grieving for a

family member or someone close to you who has died is anything

remotely like grieving for someone in a movie. It's more tangled and

complex.

 

Also, family and friends are always around. I can say with some

certainty that people stop visiting people most folks in the hospital

after a week, forget they are even there, unless they're extremely

well known. And then who's there to take care of you? There's a

reason why most people will often seem to care more about strangers

than their own family members. Family and friendship is a complicated

thing, one you can't all that easily get away from, if ever at all,

and familiarity does breed, if not contempt, a multitude of emotions

and memories good and bad and mundane. I hate to sound cold, but it's

true.

 

 

234 From: Kerri Shafer

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:18am

Subject: Re: Re: Photo of Debbie? & request for Gracemont links kerrishafer2000@...

Send Email

 

Not that I want to be one to defend Debbie, but I have

said this in the Chat many times, but it's worth

saying again: In small towns such as Gracemont, it's

not uncommon for many people in town to follow their

local school's sports teams closely. Frankly, there's

not a lot else to do on a Friday night. (Trust me --

I've been there.

 

It seems that Debbie's fixation on Julie was

unnatural, but the fact that the school's b-ball

schedule was posted was probably a matter of pride,

not stalking.

 

Then again, who knows!?! Nothing in this whole thing

follows the norm! :-)

 

--- clstamper@... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "You may call me sammy."

>

> > The BBall schedule is for Gracemont Junior High.

> >

> > (I just thought of this. They have that so they

> could follow Julie

> > around. God that's scary.)

>

> Did you ever see the movie "Bowfinger?"

>

> Stamper

>

>

 

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

235 From: Rory Ewins

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:29am

Subject: And other ruminations... rory@...

Send Email

 

Since this thread over past days saw a lot of self-linking, even on

MeFi, I won't feel bad about doing the same:

 

http://speedysnail.com/walkingwest/3/2001_05_20_archive.html#3757052

 

The initial stuff is familiar to you all (for my own audience), and a

couple of points recap my last couple of emails, but keep going -

there's a point developed from those that I don't recall having read

in the 800+ MeFi posts or here.

 

(Sorry if they overlap with anyone's emails of the past hour or so...

couldn't read them, busy writing.)

 

 

236 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:27am

Subject: Re: Photo of Debbie? & request for Gracemont links captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

Debbie might be indicted on stalking charges. Even given that high

school sports are held on a pedestal in small towns (I can personally

relate to that), her fixation on Julie was way, way out of bounds.

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Kerri Shafer wrote:

> Not that I want to be one to defend Debbie, but I have

> said this in the Chat many times, but it's worth

> saying again: In small towns such as Gracemont, it's

> not uncommon for many people in town to follow their

> local school's sports teams closely.

 

 

237 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:29am

Subject: Re: More legal references on libel captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

I just told the world you died of cancer. Would that be malicious to

you?

 

 

238 From: Rory Ewins

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:43am

Subject: Re: ruminations. rory@...

Send Email

 

>All because some poor screwed-up woman in Kansas pretended for two

>years to be someone else and, in her own demented way, share an

>experience.

 

And let's not underestimate how easy it is to keep a hoax going for

two years, particularly if you feel it's 'no big deal' that 'isn't

hurting anyone' (as Debbie seems to - she felt her feel-good messages

were helping others, and by the looks of it she was right, at least

up until last week).

 

No, a hoax is easy to keep going. Just add a little bit here, a

little bit there, every day or so... just like a weblog. Now there's

a coincidence. ;)

 

>Now I think I'll stop thinking about Kaycee for a while.

 

Amen to that. See you all back on MeFi.

 

 

239 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:54am

Subject: Re: ruminations. captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

you need a big /pounce!

 

 

240 From: jjg@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:33am

Subject: new chat venue jjg@...

Send Email

 

The crowd has moved to IRC EFNet #kaycee. I think the rationale was that

logs could be saved, plus it's a bit more stable than Yahoo's client.

 

 

241 From: "Jon Sullivan"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:39am

Subject: Re: ruminations. jon@...

Send Email

 

Okay. I just got off from jury duty. Between that and the Kaycee hoax

I'm really having a hard time finding something positive tonight. But

here are my thoughts:

 

"Which was, again, some woman pretending to be a cancer patient to

spread warmth and hope to a few hundred people."

 

No. That's how smug come-latlies are spinning this. Here's what

happened.

 

Julie has her photo splashed all over the Internet by Debbie who is

flirting with men/boys and sending them Julie's picture signed by

Kaycee. Debbie's daughter has been taught that it's okay to pretend

she has terminal cancer whenever anyone calls the house. The PO box

in Peabody has been closed, but not before people all over the

country sent gift certificates and care packages to it (none ever

returned) thinking they would go to someone who had lost her hair

from chemo. It's a real fucking laugh fest. Debbie is bragging about

the jewelry she got.

 

Debbie can whine all she wants now. This was had zero good intent. It

was crazy or it was malicious. It was never innocent.

 

"I'm just bothered by anytime I act without thinking things

through, and I think this was such a time."

 

We're there with ya. We're all asking ourselves this.

 

I don't see the witch hunt. I don't see the trampling horde. I see a

pack of focused, concerned people following the right path.

 

I'm proud of you folks. And if you ever did this in a mob-like

frenzy, and victimized innocent moms in Kansas I'd be the first to

call you on it.

 

We're okay here. And I think we're smart enough to know the

difference.

 

I just did jury duty. I have little faith in mankind right now. But I

have faith in you folks. I really do.

 

Jon Sullivan

http://www.jonsullivan.com/

 

242 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:12am

Subject: Re: More legal references on libel sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "You may call me sammy." wrote:

>

> I just told the world you died of cancer. Would that be malicious to

> you?

 

If you did so with intent to harm me, and if it did indeed harm me, then yes.

 

But the mere fact of you making such a statement isn't legally sufficient to prove libel. It's also necessary to demonstrate harm and evil intent.

 

 

243 From:

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:36am

Subject: Copyright photo stuff jr@...

Send Email

 

Having an exroommate this is a photographer helps on this one. I don't understand how, or why, but regardless of who is in the picture, it is copyright the photographer. It doesn't matter if its the damn Pope. Just so I can build him a website with pics from various photographers, I have to fill out a million copyright type forms. What a pain. Not sure where this fits in as I haven't been paying real close attention in the last few hours, so take it as you wish.

 

J.R.

www.bentbrokenme.com

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jon Sullivan

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:39 AM

Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: ruminations.

 

 

Okay. I just got off from jury duty. Between that and the Kaycee hoax

I'm really having a hard time finding something positive tonight. But

here are my thoughts:

 

"Which was, again, some woman pretending to be a cancer patient to

spread warmth and hope to a few hundred people."

 

No. That's how smug come-latlies are spinning this. Here's what

happened.

 

Julie has her photo splashed all over the Internet by Debbie who is

flirting with men/boys and sending them Julie's picture signed by

Kaycee. Debbie's daughter has been taught that it's okay to pretend

she has terminal cancer whenever anyone calls the house. The PO box

in Peabody has been closed, but not before people all over the

country sent gift certificates and care packages to it (none ever

returned) thinking they would go to someone who had lost her hair

from chemo. It's a real fucking laugh fest. Debbie is bragging about

the jewelry she got.

 

Debbie can whine all she wants now. This was had zero good intent. It

was crazy or it was malicious. It was never innocent.

 

"I'm just bothered by anytime I act without thinking things

through, and I think this was such a time."

 

We're there with ya. We're all asking ourselves this.

 

I don't see the witch hunt. I don't see the trampling horde. I see a

pack of focused, concerned people following the right path.

 

I'm proud of you folks. And if you ever did this in a mob-like

frenzy, and victimized innocent moms in Kansas I'd be the first to

call you on it.

 

We're okay here. And I think we're smart enough to know the

difference.

 

I just did jury duty. I have little faith in mankind right now. But I

have faith in you folks. I really do.

 

Jon Sullivan

http://www.jonsullivan.com/

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

244 From: truesolace00@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:10am

Subject: My thoughts-from a person affected by the incident truesolace00@...

Send Email

 

Hello,

 

I was a host on College Club.com at the time 'Kaycee' became a host.

I initally met 'Kaycee' over concern of another member at the time

under the name of JM (I will not disclose the member's name out of

respect for his privacy). This was back in Feb 99'. Shortly after.

She sent me an email and at the time and I *thought* at the time the

person I spoke to was an extremely special person.

 

We conversated over the phone on several occasion and she embraced me

as a sister like she did Nicole, Christine, Beth, Heather, and

several others on the site. I am Nika--another one of the them. I

shared intimiate things with this person and I helped through several

situations she was going through at the time as she sought my counsel

on several occasion. Yes, she did date a young man through the site

named Nick (whose acutal username on CC I will not disclose) and did

had ties to several others through citzen x and former cc staff if i

recall correctly.

 

She do quite a bit of work on the site as a host and was extremely

active in her work on CC and its sister site highscoolclub.com. Now

with everything coming to light and considering the 'fact' that there

was a supposed trust fund out there (who knows if that is even true)

considering the fact that Kaycee was online during the day--I have

reason to believe that Debbie was doing mostly that legwork with her

daughter next in tow--One clue to that is that in our first

conversation is that 'she' said that her 'sister' (now known to be

kelli-her daughter) created the 'kutebabe' name and that 'she took it

over' which now leads me to believe that the voice of Kaycee was more

than likely supplied by debbie. 'Debbie' also came into the picture a

short time before that and later 'Ash' and 'Dr John' which I now

believe are *not* real ppl just chracters as well.

 

When this 'cancer' hit she let us know and as family on CC all of us

rallied behind her--The support group was formed and living colors

was in fruitation. Suns from the site went up many places in CC's web

community and around the web in show of support for her. Prior to

that a 50+ page paper on 'her life' was sent to us in her inner

circle of friends and yes, it was vivid and very detailed but looking

at it now disturbing. I like many sent her presents and ecards and

before I learned that this was a hoax--I even brought a card from the

christian bookstore and writing what a strong woman she was and an

amazing mother. Needless to say I ask for my mother to remove the

card from the mailbox once I found out.

 

Like many who knew her I feel hurt and betrayed. It is one thing to

want to tell your story but it is another to put on a mask for almost

two years. Debbie could have stopped her daughter--instead she took

it over creating a monster that has spiraled out of control. She took

advantage of us all especially Randy who opened his heart (and space

to them on his site) and John who bulit a tight bond with her. Also

on top of that she manipulated the trust of a young woman and her

family who had no idea what was going on. I feel that now that they

know they have every right to file a suit against her and I don't

blame them. I would if I knew someone I trusted had posted my

pictures on the web especially under false pretenses.

 

Yes, there was fictional chrachter that we all grew to love who

inspired each of us but the harsh reality is that it is the

combination of an attention hungry teen and a disturbed mother who

kept the games going long after she found out. If there is any action

I hope that justice is served however I believe that Debbie needs

some serious serious help alongside her daughter who created this

persona from the get go.

 

I don't know how many people in here are christians but as one I

believe that the Lord works in mysterious ways and I believe that he

used individuals around the web (metafi and other blogs included) to

bring out what once laid in the darkness straight into the light.

Hopefully proper action will be taken so she doesn't do this to

anyone *AGAIN*

 

Thanks for listening,

Kanika

 

p.s I also want it to be known is that certain individuals have

blamed CC in its own way for having been heavily involved in the

fiasco with the 'kutebabe/kcscoolmom' being accounts on the website

and that its a bad reflection on them. I WANT IT TO BE KNOWN that IT

IS NOT THEIR FAULT. There are almost a million accoutnts on the site

(and some change) and like all of us, the staff at CC didn't know

about this either as quite a few were close to 'her' like myself,

Nicole, and others who knew 'her' via CC. I can tell you that CC

staff does what it has to do to keep the site on pointe and believe

me if there was any supcious activity it would have been looked into

immediately--they were duped like the rest of us.

 

 

245 From: truesolace00@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 0:05pm

Subject: Could it be possible that the leukemia victim....could have been Alissa??? truesolace00@...

Send Email

 

Hey,

 

I was just thinking...as I put together the pieces for my own self

and piece of mind I keep thinking about a young child named Alisa

whom Debbie/KC introuduced to many people through her CC website. She

was a young leukemia victim who was battling who passed i believe

sometime in Novemeber 2000. I think there may be a connection between

the leukemia victim references and this young child. I believe it is

on the Kutebabe page on CC.

 

Just a thought...

 

Kanika

 

 

246 From: "Laurie"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 0:53pm

Subject: Re: My thoughts-from a person affected by the incident wallflower67@...

Send Email

 

You people who knew her for years were affected the most, and I really

feel for you guys.

 

I am someone who linked to the kaycee/debbie blogs through a real

cancer support group, so I can assure you that there are real people

with cancer out there who read them. I had thought about sending the

links to my dad (who is about to undergo a BMT next month). I'm now

really glad that I didn't do that!

 

Debbie must be a pretty sick puppy. Sometimes in life, people just

aren't who they seem to be. It's not just on the internet either,

though by using the internet, Debbie managed to affect a lot more

people than she would have otherwise.

 

I'm pretty fascinated by the psychology behind her actions. (morbid

curiosity, I guess!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:

> Hello,

>

> I was a host on College Club.com at the time 'Kaycee' became a host.

> I initally met 'Kaycee' over concern of another member at the time

> under the name of JM (I will not disclose the member's name out of

> respect for his privacy). This was back in Feb 99'. Shortly after.

> She sent me an email and at the time and I *thought* at the time the

> person I spoke to was an extremely special person.

>

> We conversated over the phone on several occasion and she embraced

me

> as a sister like she did Nicole, Christine, Beth, Heather, and

> several others on the site. I am Nika--another one of the them. I

> shared intimiate things with this person and I helped through

several

> situations she was going through at the time as she sought my

counsel

> on several occasion. Yes, she did date a young man through the site

> named Nick (whose acutal username on CC I will not disclose) and did

> had ties to several others through citzen x and former cc staff if i

> recall correctly.

>

> She do quite a bit of work on the site as a host and was extremely

> active in her work on CC and its sister site highscoolclub.com. Now

> with everything coming to light and considering the 'fact' that

there

> was a supposed trust fund out there (who knows if that is even true)

> considering the fact that Kaycee was online during the day--I have

> reason to believe that Debbie was doing mostly that legwork with her

> daughter next in tow--One clue to that is that in our first

> conversation is that 'she' said that her 'sister' (now known to be

> kelli-her daughter) created the 'kutebabe' name and that 'she took

it

> over' which now leads me to believe that the voice of Kaycee was

more

> than likely supplied by debbie. 'Debbie' also came into the picture

a

> short time before that and later 'Ash' and 'Dr John' which I now

> believe are *not* real ppl just chracters as well.

>

> When this 'cancer' hit she let us know and as family on CC all of us

> rallied behind her--The support group was formed and living colors

> was in fruitation. Suns from the site went up many places in CC's

web

> community and around the web in show of support for her. Prior to

> that a 50+ page paper on 'her life' was sent to us in her inner

> circle of friends and yes, it was vivid and very detailed but

looking

> at it now disturbing. I like many sent her presents and ecards and

> before I learned that this was a hoax--I even brought a card from

the

> christian bookstore and writing what a strong woman she was and an

> amazing mother. Needless to say I ask for my mother to remove the

> card from the mailbox once I found out.

>

> Like many who knew her I feel hurt and betrayed. It is one thing to

> want to tell your story but it is another to put on a mask for

almost

> two years. Debbie could have stopped her daughter--instead she took

> it over creating a monster that has spiraled out of control. She

took

> advantage of us all especially Randy who opened his heart (and space

> to them on his site) and John who bulit a tight bond with her. Also

> on top of that she manipulated the trust of a young woman and her

> family who had no idea what was going on. I feel that now that they

> know they have every right to file a suit against her and I don't

> blame them. I would if I knew someone I trusted had posted my

> pictures on the web especially under false pretenses.

>

> Yes, there was fictional chrachter that we all grew to love who

> inspired each of us but the harsh reality is that it is the

> combination of an attention hungry teen and a disturbed mother who

> kept the games going long after she found out. If there is any

action

> I hope that justice is served however I believe that Debbie needs

> some serious serious help alongside her daughter who created this

> persona from the get go.

>

> I don't know how many people in here are christians but as one I

> believe that the Lord works in mysterious ways and I believe that he

> used individuals around the web (metafi and other blogs included) to

> bring out what once laid in the darkness straight into the light.

> Hopefully proper action will be taken so she doesn't do this to

> anyone *AGAIN*

>

> Thanks for listening,

> Kanika

>

> p.s I also want it to be known is that certain individuals have

> blamed CC in its own way for having been heavily involved in the

> fiasco with the 'kutebabe/kcscoolmom' being accounts on the website

> and that its a bad reflection on them. I WANT IT TO BE KNOWN that IT

> IS NOT THEIR FAULT. There are almost a million accoutnts on the site

> (and some change) and like all of us, the staff at CC didn't know

> about this either as quite a few were close to 'her' like myself,

> Nicole, and others who knew 'her' via CC. I can tell you that CC

> staff does what it has to do to keep the site on pointe and believe

> me if there was any supcious activity it would have been looked into

> immediately--they were duped like the rest of us.

 

 

247 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 0:53pm

Subject: Re: Could it be possible that the leukemia victim....could have been Alissa??? sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:

> Hey,

>

> I was just thinking...as I put together the pieces for my own self

> and piece of mind I keep thinking about a young child named Alisa

> whom Debbie/KC introuduced to many people through her CC website. She

> was a young leukemia victim who was battling who passed i believe

> sometime in Novemeber 2000. I think there may be a connection between

> the leukemia victim references and this young child. I believe it is

> on the Kutebabe page on CC.

>

> Just a thought...

>

> Kanika

 

That's an interesting thought. The problem is that we only have Debbie's word for the fact that this girl did die of leukemia. For all we know, that picture is just a genuine as the pictures of Julie are, and that story is just as genuine as Kaycee's story. Note that the story of that little girl was delivered by Debbie in her guise as Kaycee (which was a lie). Why should we believe it?

 

Until there is independent confirmation of the story of that girl it would be best to remain skeptical. At this point, I no longer believe anything whatever Debbie has said unless it's independently verified.

 

And I think it would be wrong to pursue this part of the story. It's not essential to determining the real issue (the fact that Kaycee was a fabrication) and it only risks invading the privacy of yet another person.

 

 

248 From: "Laurie"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 0:56pm

Subject: Re: Could it be possible that the leukemia victim....could have been Alissa??? wallflower67@...

Send Email

 

Here's another thought: when the father abandoned "kaycee" and

"debbie" just as they needed him the most, could it be that Debbie's

real husband found out what she was up to and left?

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:

> Hey,

>

> I was just thinking...as I put together the pieces for my own self

> and piece of mind I keep thinking about a young child named Alisa

> whom Debbie/KC introuduced to many people through her CC website.

She

> was a young leukemia victim who was battling who passed i believe

> sometime in Novemeber 2000. I think there may be a connection

between

> the leukemia victim references and this young child. I believe it is

> on the Kutebabe page on CC.

>

> Just a thought...

>

> Kanika

 

 

249 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 1:10pm

Subject: Re: Photo of Debbie? & request for Gracemont links mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Eve" wrote:

> Also, could someone please post the sites like Gracemont High

School

> for the connections to Julie, please? I've done searches for

> Gracemont High, but can't find anything that fills in this detail.

> Guess I'm just wanting to see the trail with my own eyes.

 

I don't think Gracemont has a Web site. I found the roster and

uniform details for the school here:

 

http://www.okhss.com/Rivals/girls%20basketball/schedulepage.cgi?

TEAM=Gracemont&CLAS=Class%20B&YEAR=1999-2000

 

 

250 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 1:13pm

Subject: Re: Photo of Debbie? mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> I don't mean that. The same entry also contains the proper identity

for Julie. The entry is dated Monday. Julie's identity was discovered

this morning.

 

BWG is in Hong Kong. His site wasn't updated with Julie's name until

at least 10-12 hours after it was uncovered here.

 

 

251 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 1:14pm

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> Julie would have to give a model release to the photographer to be

> published or he would have had to certify he had copyright on the

> photo to let others use it for commercial purposes.

 

A news publication does not need model releases from the subjects of

photographs. Otherwise, you would never see a photo in a newspaper in

which someone is making a fool of himself.

 

 

252 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 1:22pm

Subject: Re: That story in MSNBC mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Rory Ewins wrote:

> You're right, of course. And if she'd left off the PO Box, any

> photos, and any other means of verification, well, you'd have to

ask

> - would she have been so readily believed?

 

I think the biggest reason Kaycee was trusted was the price of being

wrong. If you accuse a woman dying of cancer of being a fake, and

someone responds with concrete proof of her existence, you're the

biggest asshole on the planet. That's why I'm impressed with the

people who spoke up about their suspicions before the facts were

known (as opposed to jumping in now and scolding anyone who ever

believed it).

 

 

253 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 1:36pm

Subject: Re: Could it be possible that the leukemia victim....could have been Alissa??? mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> That's an interesting thought. The problem is that we only have

Debbie's word for the fact that this girl did die of leukemia. For

all we know, that picture is just a genuine as the pictures of Julie

are, and that story is just as genuine as Kaycee's story. Note that

the story of that little girl was delivered by Debbie in her guise as

Kaycee (which was a lie). Why should we believe it?

 

I don't see any reason to believe anything coming from Debbie Swenson

(certainly not the odious efforts to blame her child). Now that the

legal authorities are involved, let them sort it out.

 

 

254 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 1:37pm

Subject: This is the REAL face of leukemia sdenbes1@...

 

THIS makes me cry.

 

 

255 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 1:46pm

Subject: Re: This is the REAL face of leukemia mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> http://q.queso.com/nancysDeath

>

> THIS makes me cry.

 

I read that too.

 

Here's another site from the real world:

 

http://www.songsforsummer.com

 

Summer Brannin died at age 21 of cancer, and her boyfriend put her

art and other things online in her honor. (It was originally planned

as something they could work on together, but she died a few months

after being diagnosed.)

 

 

256 From: "Dwivian"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 1:47pm

Subject: Re: MS NBC Coverage dwivian@...

Send Email

 

> Started moments ago:

> http://msnbc.com/news/576899.asp?cp1=1

> Saundra

 

And, the headline got sent out on the MSNBC Pager network. My hip

buzzed, and I was reading, AGAIN, about Kaycee. I'm going to have to

switch back to financial news only, I guess. *grin*

 

So, this got spewed to the world in a big way.... when will CNN and

FoxNews start rolling their trucks?

 

 

257 From: "Paige"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 2:10pm

Subject: Radio paige452@...

Send Email

 

My brother just got up and he said "Did you hear that?" I

said "what?" he said "Kaycee Nicole.." I said "On the radio?!

What'd they say?" "Just that it's a hoax and people sent all kinds

of stuff, yada yada.."

 

Interesting! Good morning everyone :)

 

 

258 From: saundra@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 2:25pm

Subject: International Coverage (????) saundra@...

Send Email

 

No (and I'm sorry, I don't speak the language, so I don't know if it's

a magazine or a newspaper, I'd guess magazine from the name) in Brazil

are running a story about this this morning.

 

http://www.no.com.br/servlets/newstorm.notitia.apresentacao.ServletDeN

oticia?codigoDaNoticia=21877&dataDoJornal=atual

 

Saundra

 

 

259 From: truesolace00@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 2:29pm

Subject: Re: Could it be possible that the leukemia victim....could have been Alissa??? truesolace00@...

Send Email

 

you know I wonder the same thing....I wouldn't be suprised if he

files for divorce in this matter. I would be appalled if I was in his

shoes knowing that my wife was playing around on the internet. If I

was him if he is in the marriage I would leave too.

 

Kanika

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Laurie" wrote:

> Here's another thought: when the father abandoned "kaycee" and

> "debbie" just as they needed him the most, could it be that

Debbie's

> real husband found out what she was up to and left?

>

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:

> > Hey,

> >

> > I was just thinking...as I put together the pieces for my own

self

> > and piece of mind I keep thinking about a young child named Alisa

> > whom Debbie/KC introuduced to many people through her CC website.

> She

> > was a young leukemia victim who was battling who passed i believe

> > sometime in Novemeber 2000. I think there may be a connection

> between

> > the leukemia victim references and this young child. I believe it

is

> > on the Kutebabe page on CC.

> >

> > Just a thought...

> >

> > Kanika

 

 

260 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 2:40pm

Subject: Re: International Coverage (????) captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

Bah, it's portuguese. who cares.

(I'm kidding of course.)

 

Babelfish.altavista.com will give you a crappy translation.

 

the first line comes out to this: "It says an old one dictated of the

network, in the Internet nobody knows if you it is a dog."

 

I.e.; unreadable.

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> No (and I'm sorry, I don't speak the language, so I don't know if

it's

> a magazine or a newspaper, I'd guess magazine from the name) in

Brazil

> are running a story about this this morning.

>

>

http://www.no.com.br/servlets/newstorm.notitia.apresentacao.ServletDeN

> oticia?codigoDaNoticia=21877&dataDoJornal=atual

>

> Saundra

 

 

261 From: dhartung@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:27pm

Subject: Re: MS NBC Coverage dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Dwivian" wrote:

> > Started moments ago:

> > http://msnbc.com/news/576899.asp?cp1=1

> > Saundra

>

> And, the headline got sent out on the MSNBC Pager network. My hip

> buzzed, and I was reading, AGAIN, about Kaycee. I'm going to have

to

> switch back to financial news only, I guess. *grin*

>

> So, this got spewed to the world in a big way.... when will CNN and

> FoxNews start rolling their trucks?

 

Without proof of fraud ... I suspect this is as big as it's going to

get. Salon is probably the only remaining sure write-up.

 

So, unless the local papers turn up stuff that Bob Skimitagain

didn't, a distinct possibility, we may be in the wind-down phase

already. (I was surprised that anybody BUT Salon was interested.)

 

 

262 From: "Eve"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:39pm

Subject: MSNBC Coverage angelwng@...

Send Email

 

The story is on the Technology cover now (I got a screen shot if

anyone wants it - it may disappear soon), in addition to the article.

There have been a handful of messages on their boards - this was my

reply to the "suckers who deserve what they got posts".

 

"We blame victims because it makes us feel safe - "I'm

too smart to be taken!" - yet, many of the people who

took "Kaycee's" story into their hearts, did

check things out to the best of their abilities.

 

"Con artists flourish when we blame the victims instead of

blaming who is actually at fault.

 

"Yes, of course, check things out! Remember though, people

are burned everyday - it runs the gamit from

relationships, resumes, product safety recalls,

"enhanced" research data, investments, all the

way to the Supreme court! Next time you waste money on a

shoddy product, ask yourself if you checked the company

thoroughly enough.

 

"We take risks when we care about others, but it's a risk

we need to be willing to take. Life is far richer, and

more of what we all want life to be about, when we care

and reach out to help."

 

I do believe that folks who were closest to "Kaycee"/Debbie did check

things out to their personal satisfaction - I mean, when you meet a

new person, do you do a background check? Yet, you hear stories

everyday about people marrying con-artists, etc.

 

There just aren't enough hours in the day to check out everything we

do to the nth degree - and even if we did that, we still couldn't

guarantee that we'd never get hurt.

 

Keep up the good work and keep the faith!

 

 

263 From: "Eve"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:41pm

Subject: Re: MS NBC Coverage angelwng@...

Send Email

 

You never know with the media, though - remember "All your base are

belong to us" made the rounds! lol - guess it depends if it's a slow

news day. ;)

 

> Without proof of fraud ... I suspect this is as big as it's going

to

> get. Salon is probably the only remaining sure write-up.

>

> So, unless the local papers turn up stuff that Bob Skimitagain

> didn't, a distinct possibility, we may be in the wind-down phase

> already. (I was surprised that anybody BUT Salon was interested.)

 

 

264 From: chaotic_faith@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:51pm

Subject: Re: Copyright photo stuff chaotic_faith@...

Send Email

 

I'm new to the "Kaycee" stuff, only learning about her after it was

announced that she "died" so I didn't have the opportunity to read

anything that was written in her blogs -- aside from the google

cache's.

There is a question that hasn't been raised and I've been wondering

about it since it was announced how "Debbie" received the photos of

Julie.

"Debbie" followed Julie's basketball games... How many of the photos

were taken of Julie by Debbie at the games, with the intent of using

them for her "Kaycee" persona? What are the legal ramifications of

Debbie doing that?

Just a thought...

 

 

265 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:08pm

Subject: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee mail@...

Send Email

 

The Peabody Kansan reports on the hoax, with several quotes from

Debbie Swenson:

 

http://www.peabodykansas.com/21nichole.html

 

Front page of the site:

 

http://www.peabodykansas.com

 

 

266 From: khalloran1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:23pm

Subject: Re: More legal references on libel khalloran1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "You may call me sammy."

wrote:

> >

> > I just told the world you died of cancer. Would that be

malicious to

> > you?

>

> If you did so with intent to harm me, and if it did indeed harm

me, then yes.

>

> But the mere fact of you making such a statement isn't legally

sufficient to prove libel. It's also necessary to demonstrate harm

and evil intent.

 

Debbie did not tell "the world" that Julie Fullbright died of

leukemia. Debbie used Julie's image (unwittingly it appears) to

create "Kaycee", and we know the rest. If not outright malice, it is

certainly dubious in intent. "Julie Fullbright is dead of cancer" at

least had the potential to have been a simple statement of fact, if

it were true.

 

 

267 From: "elizAbeth"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:27pm

Subject: Heh.... amazingjettgrrrl@...

Send Email

 

My favorite line from the PeabodyKansan story referenced above:

"Working with former journalists and Internet experts nationwide, she

Saundra Mitchell began piecing together who Kaycee might be."

 

Sheesh, I didn't fancy myself either a former journalist OR an

internet expert....do any of you??

 

 

268 From: "elizAbeth"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:30pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee amazingjettgrrrl@...

 

Heh. My favorite line from the above-referenced article:

"Working with former journalists and Internet experts nationwide, she

Saundra Mitchell began piecing together who Kaycee might be."

 

I didn't fancy myself either a former journalist OR an internet

expert, did any of you think YOU were??

 

 

269 From: David Moisan

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:34pm

Subject: Re: Radio dmoisan@...

Send Email

 

At 02:10 PM 5/23/2001 -0000, you wrote:

>My brother just got up and he said "Did you hear that?" I

>said "what?" he said "Kaycee Nicole.." I said "On the radio?!

>What'd they say?" "Just that it's a hoax and people sent all kinds

>of stuff, yada yada.."

>

 

The afternoon Paul Harvey show gave this a mention, too.

 

Take care,

 

Dave

 

David Moisan, N1KGH ARES/SKYWARN dmoisan@...

Invisible Disability:

http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/invisible_disability.html

ATS-909 FAQ: http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/faqs/sangean/ats909faq.html

 

 

270 From: "brooke"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:36pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee brooke@...

Send Email

 

debbie said: "I am a moral person," Swenson, 40, said Monday from her

home. "I lived with it every day, and felt guilty every day. It's

been a nightmare for the past week. I didn't know the reactions would

be so strong." ..

 

but the fucked up thing is that she *did* know.. she did know that

people would react strongly.. she read it everyday.. she read the

weblogs kept by so many people who gave a damn. she saw what randy

did, and what all the people on cc did.. she physically saw (by all

the things that showed up in her po box) the outpouring that came..

debbie is either really stupid, or in big time denial.

 

and if she felt so damn guilty, why did she keep this crap up? and if

she is such a moral person, why did she do it? why did she carry on

such a fraud? why did she lie to so many people?? thats a moral

person?? okay, she didn't murder anyone, she didn't rob from anyone,

but she hurt people.

 

 

271 From: adam@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:49pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee adam@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

> The Peabody Kansan reports on the hoax, with several quotes from

> Debbie Swenson:

 

The most interesting thing to me is that this small town paper's

report is a magnitude better in terms of writing and accuracy than the

MSNBC story.

 

Adam

 

Kaycee Nicole FAQ

http://www.rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26

 

272 From: saundra@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:58pm

Subject: About the Peabody Article saundra@...

Send Email

 

Hee hee, jeez, innacuracies abound. I just talked to Rick Hattersley.

He and the editor both worked on it- the quote attributed to me about

"really caring about Kaycee" was a mistake- I'd been talking about

other people really caring about Kaycee, and one of the writers on the

article wrote that paragraph from somewhat confusing notes. They'll be

fixing that in the online version, and printing a correction in the

print version.

 

Rick Hattersley would like everybody to read the article (no problem,

right?) He was hoping they might get a few hits. I warned him he might

get a few thousand.

 

Saundra

 

 

273 From: "r^2 : rich (dot) robinson"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:54pm

Subject: Re: Re: ruminations. rich@...

Send Email

 

Uh....

 

Jon Sullivan wrote:

 

> "Which was, again, some woman pretending to be a cancer patient to

> spread warmth and hope to a few hundred people."

>

> No. That's how smug come-latlies are spinning this. Here's what

> happened.

 

Smug come-latelies? SJC may not have followed Kaycee's blog, but he was

aware of all the going-ons, the implications, and so forth - as were

many of us. Some of us just don't understand the huge hype it took on,

or are questioning it in retrospect.

 

> Julie has her photo splashed all over the Internet by Debbie who is

> flirting with men/boys and sending them Julie's picture signed by

> Kaycee. Debbie's daughter has been taught that it's okay to pretend

> she has terminal cancer whenever anyone calls the house. The PO box

> in Peabody has been closed, but not before people all over the

> country sent gift certificates and care packages to it (none ever

> returned) thinking they would go to someone who had lost her hair

> from chemo. It's a real fucking laugh fest. Debbie is bragging about

> the jewelry she got.

 

Ok, granted that someone was used in this whole mess. And a bunch of

on-line bloggers and people who are open enough to care got duped. Yes,

there are obviously some childhood-raising issues. As for jewlery, I

haven't heard anyone say they sent jewlery - most likely it's a figment

of Debbie's imagination much like her new car. No one said it was a

laugh-fest, but it isn't Michael Milken bringing down the S&L industry

single-handedly, or Jeffrey Dahlmer murdering scores of people.

 

> Debbie can whine all she wants now. This was had zero good intent. It

> was crazy or it was malicious. It was never innocent.

 

Sure, it was crazy. Maybe malicious.. but I doubt Debbie had anything

against cancer sufferers.

 

> I don't see the witch hunt. I don't see the trampling horde. I see a

> pack of focused, concerned people following the right path.

 

The thing about this being a whole 'investigation' doesn't preclude the

idea that it was a trampling horde. Sure, it could have been a bunch of

concerned people. Most of them, however, I'd wager were pissed off at

being duped, or along for the ride because of the whole excitement of

being amature detectives. Maybe the outcome of revealing the hoax was

the right thing to do, but I don't think the whole mob mentality of

calling pastors, neighbors, and post offices in Kansas was the right

path. I don't think releasing Julie's name to the world when it was

pretty obvious she was an innocent in the whole thing was the right

path.

 

> I'm proud of you folks. And if you ever did this in a mob-like

> frenzy, and victimized innocent moms in Kansas I'd be the first to

> call you on it.

>

> We're okay here. And I think we're smart enough to know the

> difference.

 

Hey - if you need, or anyone else needs, the validation that you're

'okay here', fine. Sure, you didn't victimize Debbie in your frenzy,

but you managed to further victimize everyone she already had hurt. The

people in her small town, her children (who, yes, were participants and

initiators, but obviously lacking proper parental guidence), Julie and

her family, and the online people who have been run through the wringer

as hoaxters themselves to willing colaborators, to self-serving self

promoters.

 

People who were financially taken, yeah, they should have some

recourse. Although, as SJC said, I never understood the whole

unsolicited gift thing, anyway. But the life that this took on, and

continues to have, and the spin the media will put on it I think are all

out of porportion to what actually happened, and it could have been

handled in a wiser, more effective manner.

 

--

-r^2, 'magically delicious'

http://www.inferiority.com

rich@...

 

 

274 From: songsforsummer@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:00pm

Subject: something real, Halycon, etc songsforsummer@...

Send Email

 

Hello,

 

What a beautiful world we live in.

 

A friend alerted me about the hoax, metafilter.com and that someone

posted a link there to a site i helped create for my girlfriend,

Summer Brannin, who passed away from cancer in 1998 at the age of

21. How sad is it that the person who posted the link also had to

link to a page that verifies her onetime existence? I can't tell you

how much that creeped me out. It's nice that people might go check

out the site but it also makes me a lil' ill. I worried myself sick

about how people might perceive the See Summer Swing Dance site but

the response was always amazing. I don't even know what to say about

someone who would make up a story so close to what I saw happen to

such a wonderful person. I can't tell you how much good it did me to

have so many people visit the Summersite and get something positive

out of it. I got a lot from people's reactions which helped me

through an awful time. I guess Debbie got the same kind of "support"

but for what!? I just spent the last few hours learning about the

Kaycee phenomenon and I feel awful knowing how much time was spent on

a fabrication like this.

 

I was surprised to see an old friend of mine (John Halcyon) being in

the middle of this. He is one of the nicest, funniest, coolest folks

I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. My girlfriend thought he was

tops too and, like everyone else who knew her, he thought she was

great as well. He came to her Celebration of Life ceremony and

linked to the Summersite from many of his webpages. Oddly enough, I

came to John with several web questions, one time after the

Summersite was named the Cruel Site of the Day. In the middle of all

of the crazy, gross, fun stuff that ends up on that site, they

decided to link to something as heartfelt as SSSD. People accused

them of going soft. Funny enough, it's cruel.com's creator that just

put the link to the Summersite on metafilter and just mentioned the

site in a thread here on the yahoo group (Thanks Rogers, but did you

have to link to the death thing too? ugh). So it's no surprise that

John would've tried to help "Kaycee". To even suggest that he would

be part of a hoax like this is completely absurd. To say that he's

put some crazy stuff up on his websites would be an understatement

but the man's got a huge heart and more people should live life the

way he does.

 

I guess if you'd like to see how an online tribute can be POSITIVE, go

check out http://www.thesummersite.com . Please feel free to spread

it around. I created the site to show people how great Summer was

and every time someone goes and sees her art or reads stories about

her or sees what people have written in the site's guestbook, there's

no doubting what an amazing impact she made and continues to make on

the world.

 

Long live the gurl,

Adam

 

(Please feel free to post or forward this anywhere. Maybe some folks

can visit the Summersite and have SOME good come out of all of this.)

 

There's also a charity record you can get at most local and online

record stores that is a very real tribute to a very real person (plus

it's got real good music and benefits a real good cause, Free Arts

For Abused Children, http://freearts.org).

 

 

275 From: saundra@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:20pm

Subject: Paul Harvey saundra@...

Send Email

 

You can hear Paul Harvey's story on Kaycee Nicole if you go to

http://www.paulharvey.com/ and click on "This Morning" it's at 3.42

into the report. No mention of any of us, or the Internet, but says

that there is an investigation ongoing.

 

Saundra

 

 

276 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:44pm

Subject: Re: something real, Halycon, etc mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., songsforsummer@y... wrote:

> Funny enough, it's cruel.com's creator that just put the link to

> the Summersite on metafilter and just mentioned the site in a

> thread here on the yahoo group (Thanks Rogers, but did you

> have to link to the death thing too? ugh).

 

Sorry ... I wanted to introduce people to Summer's site without

inviting any speculation about whether she was a real person or not.

The SSDI database was the easiest way to prove it.

 

There is something unnerving about seeing loved ones in that database.

 

 

277 From: Matthew Haughey

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:50pm

Subject: metafilter is gone matt@...

Send Email

 

In case anyone was wondering when metafilter is coming back online, it

won't be for a while.

 

The network host for Pyra's offices, FirstWorld/Sirius has cancelled the

connection. They're no longer in the business of selling T-1 lines. They

apparently emailed Ev to warn him last month this change would happen, but

since he never reads his damn mail he must have missed it.

 

ugh. (btw, that means no blogspot, newsblogger, megnut, evhead, onfocus

either, for a while)

 

So I guess I'll drag it home to my DSL line in my apartment, and it'll be

slow and assy until I find something better.

 

You can email me offlist if you have any ideas, basically, I need to host

my own server somewhere, I need someone with a fast line and space for my

box, and there isn't much for alternatives (mirroring is out of the

question, the site is too involved of a web application).

 

Matt

--

matt@...

 

 

278 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:55pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

Matt, I'm sorry.

 

 

279 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:55pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "brooke" wrote:

> "I am a moral person," Swenson, 40, said Monday from her

> home.

 

I haven't heard a statement that convincing since "I never slept

with that woman" and "I am not a crook."

 

I figured that Hattersley's reference to a former reporter was to me,

since I mentioned it somewhere as we were digging up stuff about

Swenson. As for Internet experts being involved, at least one Human

Portal assisted in the investigation. Doesn't that count?

 

 

280 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 5:57pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

Totally. We're not going to see a better on article on this thing, I

think.

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., adam@r... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

> > The Peabody Kansan reports on the hoax, with several quotes from

> > Debbie Swenson:

>

> The most interesting thing to me is that this small town paper's

> report is a magnitude better in terms of writing and accuracy than

the

> MSNBC story.

>

> Adam

>

> Kaycee Nicole FAQ

> http://www.rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26

 

 

281 From: dhartung@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:00pm

Subject: Metafilter Unreachable dhartung@...

Send Email

 

For those of you who don't know, Metafilter.com is presently

unreachable due to a router misconfiguration:

 

Tracing route to metafilter.com [207.44.174.249]

over a maximum of 30 hops:

 

1 120 ms 112 ms 112 ms private

snipped

14 167 ms 166 ms 163 ms border-sf-s8-0-0.sirius.com

[205.134.254.37]

15 162 ms 161 ms 161 ms bdr1.sntccaidc.firstworld.net

[205.134.254.38]

16 164 ms 163 ms 165 ms border-sf-s8-0-0.sirius.com

[205.134.254.37]

17 165 ms 165 ms 162 ms bdr1.sntccaidc.firstworld.net

[205.134.254.38]

 

It will continue like that until your browser times out. At any rate,

this is not a server problem, it's an ISP problem.

 

 

282 From: yahoo@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:02pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone yahoo@...

Send Email

 

Bummer Matt. Perhaps in a spirit of good faith, Debbie Swenson would

volunteer with her checkbook to get this corrected.

 

 

283 From: dhartung@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:04pm

Subject: Re: Metafilter Unreachable dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dhartung@s... wrote:

> For those of you who don't know, Metafilter.com is presently

> unreachable due to a router misconfiguration:

 

Whoops. I'm now caught up with all messages ... My bad.

 

 

284 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:05pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone raysmj@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Matthew Haughey wrote:

> In case anyone was wondering when metafilter is coming back online,

it

> won't be for a while.

>

> The network host for Pyra's offices, FirstWorld/Sirius has

cancelled the

> connection. They're no longer in the business of selling T-1 lines.

They

> apparently emailed Ev to warn him last month this change would

happen, but

> since he never reads his damn mail he must have missed it.

>

> ugh. (btw, that means no blogspot, newsblogger, megnut, evhead,

onfocus

> either, for a while)

>

> So I guess I'll drag it home to my DSL line in my apartment, and

it'll be

> slow and assy until I find something better.

>

> You can email me offlist if you have any ideas, basically, I need

to host

> my own server somewhere, I need someone with a fast line and space

for my

> box, and there isn't much for alternatives (mirroring is out of the

> question, the site is too involved of a web application).

>

> Matt

> --

> matt@h...

 

Can donations still be made at amazon? And how, if so? Seems like

they'd be more needed now than before.

 

 

285 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:12pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee sarapture@...

Send Email

 

Has it occurred to anybody besides me that now Debbie has the URL of

our little investigative club here? creepy.

 

insert twilight zone music

 

i'm not debbie. really.

 

 

286 From: saundra@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:11pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone saundra@...

Send Email

 

> Can donations still be made at amazon? And how, if so? Seems like

> they'd be more needed now than before.

 

I'm with Ray, I would be happy to donate to get MetaFilter back up and

running.

 

Saundra

 

 

287 From: saundra@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:13pm

Subject: South China Morning Post saundra@...

Send Email

 

The South China Morning Post's article is up at

http://technology.scmp.com/ZZZ71F5UTMC.html - however, you have to

register to read it. Very, very MeFi positive article, yay!!!

 

Saundra

 

 

288 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:14pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

>

> > Can donations still be made at amazon? And how, if so? Seems like

> > they'd be more needed now than before.

>

> I'm with Ray, I would be happy to donate to get MetaFilter back up

and

> running.

 

To donate to MetaFilter:

 

http://www.amazon.com/paypage/P1D8X7C3FS50E9

 

 

289 From: "Jess Cook"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:16pm

Subject: RE: Re: metafilter is gone jess@...

Send Email

 

Ditto, ditto, ditto. If there's anything the legion of MetaFaithful can do

to help, Matt, please just say the word.

 

Jess.

pocketgeek.com/pith/

 

 

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 11:11 AM

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: metafilter is gone

 

> Can donations still be made at amazon? And how, if so? Seems like

> they'd be more needed now than before.

 

I'm with Ray, I would be happy to donate to get MetaFilter back up and

running.

 

 

290 From: eckeric@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:18pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone eckeric@...

Send Email

 

Wow Matt, that sucks. I am sorry you are stuck with that situation.

Good luck with finding a solution. I wish I could help.

 

 

291 From: "Adam"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:22pm

Subject: Re: something real, Halycon, etc adam@...

Send Email

 

> > Funny enough, it's cruel.com's creator that just put the link to

> > the Summersite on metafilter and just mentioned the site in a

> > thread here on the yahoo group (Thanks Rogers, but did you

> > have to link to the death thing too? ugh).

>

> Sorry ... I wanted to introduce people to Summer's site without

> inviting any speculation about whether she was a real person or

not.

> The SSDI database was the easiest way to prove it.

>

> There is something unnerving about seeing loved ones in that

database.

 

I know and that's part of the sad thing about all this. If there is

some cause worth getting behind, it'll be harder for people to

believe after all of this. It's bad enough when people who are new

to the internet start getting e-mail hoax stuff and forwarding it,

only to have people who have seen it a million times flame them for

not knowing any better. Now some people are going to visit the

Summersite and doubt that Summer really existed. Imaginary until

proven real? That is really scary and sad.

 

Now that i think about it, most of the artists that are on the

charity record we did never met Summer (though even some of the more

famous ones like Ben Folds Five actually did). As huge as the Kaycee

thing got, could you imagine if it had received attention outside of

the internet community? You have to wonder if Debbie worried that it

would get that big and she'd be found out. Scary.

 

So, thanks again for letting people know about the site, Rogers.

 

(another) adam

 

 

292 From: Oliver Willis

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:23pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone owillis@...

Send Email

 

Couldn't you host it at something like Rackspace? I

think we've got enough members to contribute $10+ a

month to cover that....

 

--- Matthew Haughey wrote:

> In case anyone was wondering when metafilter is

> coming back online, it

> won't be for a while.

>

> The network host for Pyra's offices,

> FirstWorld/Sirius has cancelled the

> connection. They're no longer in the business of

> selling T-1 lines. They

> apparently emailed Ev to warn him last month this

> change would happen, but

> since he never reads his damn mail he must have

> missed it.

>

> ugh. (btw, that means no blogspot, newsblogger,

> megnut, evhead, onfocus

> either, for a while)

>

> So I guess I'll drag it home to my DSL line in my

> apartment, and it'll be

> slow and assy until I find something better.

>

> You can email me offlist if you have any ideas,

> basically, I need to host

> my own server somewhere, I need someone with a fast

> line and space for my

> box, and there isn't much for alternatives

> (mirroring is out of the

> question, the site is too involved of a web

> application).

>

> Matt

> --

> matt@...

>

>

>

 

 

=====

Oliver Willis

www.oliverwillis.com

owillis@...

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

293 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:31pm

Subject: Re: South China Morning Post -- this is fair use, right? captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

"The news of Kaycee's "death", provided by Ms Swenson, sparked

intense discussions on the MetaFilter community Weblog (at

www.metafilter.com). People described, on various sites, how Kaycee's

life could have been faked.

 

Suspicion was sparked by the fact that Debbie and the family wouldn't

give an address for condolence cards and that the funeral

arrangements seemed rushed. The P.O. box provided no longer accepted

mail, according to a FAQ (frequently asked questions) on the matter

linked to MetaFilter. (http://rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26)

 

On the MetaFilter site, people realised that no one had ever met

Kaycee in real life, and searches failed to turn up someone with her

name in Kansas or Oklahoma, her previous home. However, information

about a Debbie Swenson and her daughter Kelli turned up on the Web

and the similarities between the two sets of individuals were

striking, according to the FAQ. "

 

 

294 From: "Lia Bulaong"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:36pm

Subject: motive me@...

Send Email

 

Hi again,

 

From the SCMP article: "Mr van der Woning was grief-stricken by

the May 14th death of Kaycee, only days before he planned to fly

from Hong Kong to the United States to meet her."

Well, no wonder Debbie "killed" Kaycee. There's no way she

could've gotten Julie to pretend to be Kaycee, and because she

used Julie's photos, no-one else could've pulled it off. I feel so bad

for BWG.

Lia

http://cheesedip.com

 

 

295 From: "christine"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:37pm

Subject: Re: South China Morning Post - User/Pass phooeygirl@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

>

> The South China Morning Post's article is up at

> http://technology.scmp.com/ZZZ71F5UTMC.html - however, you have to

> register to read it. Very, very MeFi positive article, yay!!!

>

> Saundra

 

username: metafilter

password: filter

 

 

296 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:44pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

> and if she felt so damn guilty, why did she keep this crap up? and if

> she is such a moral person, why did she do it? why did she carry on

> such a fraud? why did she lie to so many people?? thats a moral

> person?? okay, she didn't murder anyone, she didn't rob from anyone,

> but she hurt people.

 

I really think that this is a case of something small which grew and got out of hand. Once you've gotten hold of the tail of the tiger, all you can do is just hang on.

 

I think that at the beginning she didn't realize how much reaction there would be. Once there was a lot, there was no longer any clean way to get out from under. But the reckoning could be postponed, for a while, and I think that is what she has been doing for the last few months.

 

 

297 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:46pm

Subject: Re: motive captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

Oh my. That ticket couldn't have been cheap.

 

They were talking about meeting for a long time. Here's an entry

from the Living Color blog.

 

 

Saturday, October 07, 2000

awww... I love Randy!! /pounce

 

And my trip to Hong Kong is gonna be just like that... but better!!!

 

I'm sending Mabel and Randy my love!

 

10/7/2000 11:08:51 AM | ° i am the warrior °

 

 

I never saw another mention of any trips, but I could've missed

something. Someone also said "KayCee" had a lot of "boyfriends" on

CC and would break up with them when the got close to meeting.

 

I am totally a gawker. I can't look away.

 

I'm so sorry for everybody involved with this. Good god.

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Lia Bulaong" wrote:

> Hi again,

>

> From the SCMP article: "Mr van der Woning was grief-stricken by

> the May 14th death of Kaycee, only days before he planned to fly

> from Hong Kong to the United States to meet her."

> Well, no wonder Debbie "killed" Kaycee. There's no way she

> could've gotten Julie to pretend to be Kaycee, and because she

> used Julie's photos, no-one else could've pulled it off. I feel so

bad

> for BWG.

> Lia

> http://cheesedip.com

 

 

298 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:54pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "brooke" wrote:

> > "I am a moral person," Swenson, 40, said Monday from her

> > home.

>

> I haven't heard a statement that convincing since "I never slept

> with that woman" and "I am not a crook."

>

> I figured that Hattersley's reference to a former reporter was to me,

> since I mentioned it somewhere as we were digging up stuff about

> Swenson. As for Internet experts being involved, at least one Human

> Portal assisted in the investigation. Doesn't that count?

 

I think by the standards of normal humans who read newspapers, most of us ARE internet experts. I, myself, have been a software engineer for 25 years, and I worked for a while at BBN on the Arpanet. All of us are very familiar with search engines. The things we take for granted as usual skills really are more rare than you might think.

 

Most of you know what a DNS is, and how routers work (at least conceptually) and thus how your traffic goes from HERE to THERE; to the majority of users of the web, it's just magic (in the Clarkian sense). We also have a nontrivial number of people who are facile in the use of graphics editors and can recognize when a picture has been modified. We had people looking at the headers and HTTP encoding of files, looking for common coding styles and trying to deduce common use of tools.

 

A lot of this really was quite technically sophisticated work. Don't sell yourselves short.

 

 

299 From: chaotic_faith@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:55pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone chaotic_faith@...

Send Email

 

I'd be more than happy to make a donation. I'm not a "member" of

metafilter yet... only learning about it once the hoax broke, and

spent hours reading the messages there.

I went to the link that was listed... is it payment by credit card

only? Is there a paypal account set up or can I pay via my paypal

account instead? Please let me know.

~faith

 

 

300 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:03pm

Subject: Re: South China Morning Post - User/Pass sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "christine" wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> >

> > The South China Morning Post's article is up at

> > http://technology.scmp.com/ZZZ71F5UTMC.html - however, you have to

> > register to read it. Very, very MeFi positive article, yay!!!

> >

> > Saundra

>

> username: metafilter

> password: filter

 

OK, I'll give BWG points for going to the SCMP himself. And this does answer one of my remaining questions: why did Kaycee die? His planned trip to visit her definitely brought things to a head.

 

 

301 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:02pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone sarapture@...

Send Email

 

But wait, how do we know that Metafilter is REALLY dead?

 

j/k couldn't resist...

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> >

> > > Can donations still be made at amazon? And how, if so? Seems like

> > > they'd be more needed now than before.

> >

> > I'm with Ray, I would be happy to donate to get MetaFilter back up

> and

> > running.

>

> To donate to MetaFilter:

>

> http://www.amazon.com/paypage/P1D8X7C3FS50E9

 

302 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:05pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Sara" wrote:

> Has it occurred to anybody besides me that now Debbie has the URL of

> our little investigative club here? creepy.

>

> insert twilight zone music

>

> i'm not debbie. really.

 

Debbie's almost certainly known about us all along. We were linked from BWG's site last Sunday when the first partial confessions were published, including links to MeFi. There were MeFi links to the Yahoo group long before it went down. If she's been following it closely, there's no chance she wouldn't know about this group here.

 

Anyway, I can't see that it would make any difference. It's just one more raindrop in the storm of protest on the web.

 

 

303 From: truesolace00@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:12pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee truesolace00@...

Send Email

 

If she was moral then why she kept a charade of this magnitude going

on for almost two years??? A *TRUE* mother would have nipped it in

the bud--I know that I would if my child created a false persona on

the web.

 

Kanika

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Rogers Cadenhead" wrote:

> > --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "brooke" wrote:

> > > "I am a moral person," Swenson, 40, said Monday from her

> > > home.

> >

> > I haven't heard a statement that convincing since "I never slept

> > with that woman" and "I am not a crook."

> >

> > I figured that Hattersley's reference to a former reporter was to

me,

> > since I mentioned it somewhere as we were digging up stuff about

> > Swenson. As for Internet experts being involved, at least one

Human

> > Portal assisted in the investigation. Doesn't that count?

>

> I think by the standards of normal humans who read newspapers, most

of us ARE internet experts. I, myself, have been a software engineer

for 25 years, and I worked for a while at BBN on the Arpanet. All of

us are very familiar with search engines. The things we take for

granted as usual skills really are more rare than you might think.

>

> Most of you know what a DNS is, and how routers work (at least

conceptually) and thus how your traffic goes from HERE to THERE; to

the majority of users of the web, it's just magic (in the Clarkian

sense). We also have a nontrivial number of people who are facile in

the use of graphics editors and can recognize when a picture has been

modified. We had people looking at the headers and HTTP encoding of

files, looking for common coding styles and trying to deduce common

use of tools.

>

> A lot of this really was quite technically sophisticated work.

Don't sell yourselves short.

 

 

304 From: Matthew Haughey

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:14pm

Subject: Re: Re: metafilter is gone matt@...

Send Email

 

On 06:55 PM 5/23/2001 +0000, chaotic_faith@... wrote:

>I'd be more than happy to make a donation.

 

I'm trying to sort out a variety of free/low-cost options right now that

people have been nice enough to offer, so hold off on the donations until I

get a new long-term arrangement (if it's not free, I'll let people chip in).

 

Matt

 

 

305 From: "Ray Mikell"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:49pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone raysmj@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Matthew Haughey wrote:

> On 06:55 PM 5/23/2001 +0000, chaotic_faith@y... wrote:

> >I'd be more than happy to make a donation.

>

> I'm trying to sort out a variety of free/low-cost options right now

that

> people have been nice enough to offer, so hold off on the donations

until I

> get a new long-term arrangement (if it's not free, I'll let people

chip in).

>

> Matt

 

Oh well. it's sorta like tipping a waitress who acts way to modest,

then? Sorry, we have that socially reinforced way of thinking, a fee

for services rendered thing. The whole metafilter thing, and this

case in particular, has been very highly educational, informative and

grandly entertaining. Feels like a getting-money-from-your parents

thing going on sorta reaction here. "Matt, take the cash." "No, I

don't need it, it's OK." "Damn it, buy yourself a coke or

something." "No, no . . . " "God *&#@(@, I'm giving you this, now let

me do it." Etc., etc.

 

Just saw part of the stupid movie "Galaxy Quest" on HBO at lunch, by

the way, about a "Star Trek" like cast which gets taken into space by

aliens who've watched the show from beyond and think it's an earthly

historical document. Shatner-like character has to inform the aliens

at the conclusion that the show's all a lie, and the lead alien is

broken-hearted.

 

Favorite dumb line, from the Shatner-like character: "Come on, it's

TV. You have TV on your planet, don't you? You've seen our other

shows. You don't think 'Gilligan's Island' is real, do you?"

 

Lead alien responds, "Oh, those . . . poor . . . people."

 

 

306 From: dhartung@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 7:51pm

Subject: Re: South China Morning Post dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> The South China Morning Post's article is up at

> http://technology.scmp.com/ZZZ71F5UTMC.html - however, you have to

> register to read it. Very, very MeFi positive article, yay!!!

 

Yeah, the only one to get it, too. Plus, I *think* that's me in the

last paragraph (an "online chronicler" who posted three other hoax

incidences ... I know other people brought up others, but I think I

was the only one to list that many at once). Everlasting fame is

mine! :-S

 

 

307 From: "Paul Waldron"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 8:12pm

Subject: Full International Coverage (????) dbapaul@...

Send Email

 

If you're really interested (and can think in convoluted circles) the

full babelfish translation is:

 

It says an old one dictated of the network, in the Internet nobody

knows if you it is a dog. This week, a trot that goes to enter for

the history of web proved this exactly. Nicole is about the life of

Kaycee Swensen, a girl of 19 years, college student, who assembled

its site between 1997 and 98. He suffered from leukemia and he wrote,

online, a daily one. In the network, Kaycee made friends, changed

emails frequent with much people, gained affection, gifts, probably

money and died in the fight against the cancer has one week. In this

period, it even obtained to be cited in the " New York Times ". Only

that Kaycee never existed. " As many, I have the same questions. With

who I beat papo in one chat? Of who age the letter in the letter that

I received " The quotations marks belong to the Randall van to give

Woning, an American who lives in Hong Kong and that of one year for

he yielded space in its supplier to the page of the girl here. In the

sunday, a called woman Debbie Swensen, who until then said mother of

Kaycee, talked with it to the telephone. It explained that the

messages and the daily one were the history of three patients of

cancer that knows and asked for excuses for having been deceptive it.

Randall bought history and she published it. " I pardon it. " The

explanation after came days the death official notice. The fact of

the used post-office box for the girl to have been cancelled and of

the family to have if refused to divulge where it would be the burial

despertou suspicion. Several of its friends online had fallen then in

the network to search more information, to check given. They had

discovered the following one: 1. Between 97 and 98 a ginasial

student, Kelli Swensen, invented with friends an imaginary girl, "

Kaycee Nicole ", and for it they had constructed a site. To portray

it, they had used photos of another girl, Julie Fullbright, player of

basquete, star of a college of according to degree of its

cidadezinha, in Oklahoma, that never had nothing to see with this. 2.

The mother of Kelli, Debbie, discovered history and decided to

develop it, assuming persona. She made of Kaycee a leukemia patient

and started to count to a life of suffering and sapiência. When a

journalist of the " New York Times " looked for telephone, gave it to

the young woman its last name. Kaycee turned its son. 3. History

assumes a gigantic ratio when " Kaycee " knows van to give to Woning

online. Owner of a site very visited, it opens the gates so that he

divulges its history. It is when its index of popularity in the

network grows much that Debbie decides " to kill it ". Then it raised

suspicion. In the truth, already it had people suspecting before. It

is the case, for example, of Kristin Thomas, writer whom a personal

site in the network keeps. " Age the type of thing that my husband

flame of Illness of Pretty People? it knows as it is, when contract a

mortal illness that makes more of prettier them and, calm and wise

until, suddenly, they die a death without pain. We very see of this

in films and novels. For a time I was been silent, therefore Kaycee

had so burning hot fans that nobody wanted to hear nothing critical

minimamente its respect. " Who killed history all, however, was a

police reporter. I resell each one of the texts signed for the girl

and for its mother, binding for local periodicals of the city where

it said to live, speaking with the policy and the medical

presumptions, it traced pass-the-I pass that boot until Randall van

to give Woning as suspicious of the intrigue, the first citizen of "

good faith " to be been deceptive. For Dave Winer, one of the most

important commentators of the network, the history of Kaycee Nicole

goes to be remembered as it was " the war of the worlds " of Orson

Welles in the radio. It says an old one dictated of the network, in

the Internet nobody knows if you it is a dog. History, now, starts to

arrive in the press and the policy was involved. Much people ordered

gifts for Kaycee and, possibly, money to help in the hospital

expenditures. She is historical a typical one of the great network,

where the contact is absolutely human and personal? without that

human and personal contact is of necessary fact. It is alone to bind

the capacity to perceive, this engenhoca so in low in the times of

web.

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "You may call me sammy."

wrote:

>

> Bah, it's portuguese. who cares.

> (I'm kidding of course.)

>

> Babelfish.altavista.com will give you a crappy translation.

>

> the first line comes out to this: "It says an old one dictated of

the

> network, in the Internet nobody knows if you it is a dog."

>

> I.e.; unreadable.

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., saundra@a... wrote:

> > No (and I'm sorry, I don't speak the language, so I don't know if

> it's

> > a magazine or a newspaper, I'd guess magazine from the name) in

> Brazil

> > are running a story about this this morning.

> >

> >

>

http://www.no.com.br/servlets/newstorm.notitia.apresentacao.ServletDeN

> > oticia?codigoDaNoticia=21877&dataDoJornal=atual

> >

> > Saundra

 

 

308 From: dhartung@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 8:17pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Sara" wrote:

> > Has it occurred to anybody besides me that now Debbie has

> > the URL of our little investigative club here? creepy.

 

Sara, it's public ...

 

> Debbie's almost certainly known about us all along. We were

> linked from BWG's site last Sunday when the first partial

> confessions were published, including links to MeFi. There

> were MeFi links to the Yahoo group long before it went down.

> If she's been following it closely, there's no chance she

> wouldn't know about this group here.

 

Don't forget that she dissed the doubters back in September and

pointed to Metafilter. Still she courageously continued the lie for

another eight months! Such spunk!

 

She's also allegedly posted/posed as a supporter in previous threads.

One can speculate she did the same here, though most of those that I

recall are well known.

 

 

309 From: "Dwivian"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 8:44pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone dwivian@...

Send Email

 

"Sara" wrote:

> But wait, how do we know that Metafilter is REALLY dead?

> j/k couldn't resist...

 

No reason to be nervous about your doubts -- I doubt that Metafilter

really existed in the first place. Besides, have you ever seen

Metafilter play basketball?

 

> > To donate to MetaFilter:

> >

> > http://www.amazon.com/paypage/P1D8X7C3FS50E9

 

-dwiv

 

 

310 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 8:45pm

Subject: How did you all find out about this......... memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought our

weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids just

got home from school making comments about the same.

 

BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I work

in the community so know who she is just by being around.

 

This is all really freaky!

 

 

311 From: "Tiffany Ring"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 8:51pm

Subject: RE: How did you all find out about this......... tif@...

Send Email

 

Some people met her through some of her online organizations, such as http://www.collegeclub.com, others (like me) met her through her online journal. Some people got into this after the fact - from a site discussing if she was real or not (metafilter). I spoke with "Kaycee" a few times through instant messaging as well, and we shared a lot of mutual online friends.

 

Tiffany Ring-Mulroy

  • Deco-Rations Design

 

  • Intellectual Suicide

 

-----Original Message-----

From: memorable_for_you2001@yahoo.com [mailto:memorable_for_you2001@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 3:46 PM

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Subject: kaycee-nicole How did you all find out about this.........

 

 

How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought our

weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids just

got home from school making comments about the same.

 

BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I work

in the community so know who she is just by being around.

 

This is all really freaky!

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

312 From: "Tara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 8:51pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... tara@...

Send Email

 

> How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

 

Are you asking about us individual individuals? Personally I found her

through the bwg's site - but I haven't the faintest idea how I found

the bwg's site. Probably by randomly surfing weblogs. I guess that

many people are more or less in the same situation.

 

Tara

Je réponds au mieux de mes connaissances...

Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org

Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net

 

 

313 From: jen.clifford@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 8:55pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone jen.clifford@...

Send Email

 

Just out of curiosity, was the connection through Area Systems? I

only ask because they emailed me a month ago saying they were going

away, with another announcement last night that the disconnection was

happening any moment. Seemed too much of a coincidence otherwise...

 

Jen

who stupidly hosted through csoft when they completely tanked with no

announcement and took rather a lot of people's money with them

 

 

314 From: Michelle KinseyClinton

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:04pm

Subject: Re: Re: metafilter is gone sapphir3blu3@...

Send Email

 

According to the Blogger site, it looks like it was

First World, at firstworld.com .

 

 

m

 

 

--- jen.clifford@... wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, was the connection through

> Area Systems?

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

315 From: commidd@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:03pm

Subject: MS NBC Coverage commidd@...

Send Email

 

Noticed that the story at MS NBC has been changed to include this:

 

"The alleged photographs of Kaycee turned out to be images of a

Swenson family friend who was a high school basketball star.

 

"The girl's mother, who ask that their names not be printed, told

MSNBC.com she had no idea her daughter's image was posted on the

Internet for the past year, that her visual identity had been stolen.

She only found out about the incident when Debbie called her Monday

night to apologize."

 

 

316 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:05pm

Subject: Re: metafilter is gone sarapture@...

Send Email

 

Come to think of it, has anybody ever seen Matt and Debbie Swenson in

the same room? Hmmmmm.

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Dwivian" wrote:

> "Sara" wrote:

> > But wait, how do we know that Metafilter is REALLY dead?

> > j/k couldn't resist...

>

> No reason to be nervous about your doubts -- I doubt that Metafilter

> really existed in the first place. Besides, have you ever seen

> Metafilter play basketball?

>

> > > To donate to MetaFilter:

> > >

> > > http://www.amazon.com/paypage/P1D8X7C3FS50E9

>

> -dwiv

 

 

317 From: Peggy Butterworth

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:16pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... pbutterw@...

Send Email

 

I've been following the weblogs for months after finding bwg's site and

emailed my support and sympathy to Debbie. Looking back on it all, it

does seem pretty funny that I believed in the whole Kaycee construct. I

remember thinking at one point that she was just too much of a Pollyanna

and couldn't possibly be that perky under the circumstances. Then I

chided myself for being too cynical! Live and learn.

 

I imagine Debbie to be quite a wacko and I wonder if her neighbors ever

had a clue. Julie's mother hinted that she had her suspicions about

Debbie and her 'admiration' for Julie, but nothing else has been said.

As someone from the community, what do you know of the Swensons? How is

Mr. Swenson taking all of this?

 

Peggy

 

memorable_for_you2001@... wrote:

 

> How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

> Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought our

> weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids just

> got home from school making comments about the same.

>

> BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I work

> in the community so know who she is just by being around.

>

> This is all really freaky!

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>

>

>

 

 

318 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:13pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

> Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought

our

> weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids just

> got home from school making comments about the same.

>

> BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I

work

> in the community so know who she is just by being around.

>

> This is all really freaky!

 

For us, Kaycee was a presence online, whose location wasn't

originally known. (Everything online is within arm's reach.) We only

located your town after we started investigating. For you, it's

something local and immediate. For us, it's someplace "out there".

Her main site was actually hosted in (I believe) California, through

the good graces of someone in Hong Kong. I happen to be in San Diego,

and people involved in this are in Toronto, and San Francisco, and

Chicago, and all over the place. We've got some Brits in it, too.

This was really a global thing.

 

For you it's strange because she's just down the block. For us the

whole thing is electronic.

 

And you're not kidding about it being freaky. It was even more freaky

as it was unfolding and we kept discovering more and more.

 

 

319 From: "Louise Butler"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:13pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... lou@...

Send Email

 

> How is Mr. Swenson taking all of this?

 

Good question!!

 

I can't imagine what I'd be doing right now if I was Mr. Swenson.

 

 

320 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:15pm

Subject: Re: MS NBC Coverage sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., commidd@y... wrote:

> Noticed that the story at MS NBC has been changed to include this:

>

> "The alleged photographs of Kaycee turned out to be images of a

> Swenson family friend who was a high school basketball star.

>

> "The girl's mother, who ask that their names not be printed, told

> MSNBC.com she had no idea her daughter's image was posted on the

> Internet for the past year, that her visual identity had been

stolen.

> She only found out about the incident when Debbie called her Monday

> night to apologize."

 

I thought she found out yesterday morning when one of ours called

her. What the hell is going on here?

 

 

321 From:

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:17pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... jr@...

Send Email

 

Has anyone even heard anything on Mr. Swenson?

 

 

I've been following the weblogs for months after finding bwg's site and

emailed my support and sympathy to Debbie. Looking back on it all, it

does seem pretty funny that I believed in the whole Kaycee construct. I

remember thinking at one point that she was just too much of a Pollyanna

and couldn't possibly be that perky under the circumstances. Then I

chided myself for being too cynical! Live and learn.

 

I imagine Debbie to be quite a wacko and I wonder if her neighbors ever

had a clue. Julie's mother hinted that she had her suspicions about

Debbie and her 'admiration' for Julie, but nothing else has been said.

As someone from the community, what do you know of the Swensons? How is

Mr. Swenson taking all of this?

 

Peggy

 

memorable_for_you2001@yahoo.com wrote:

 

> How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

> Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought our

> weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids just

> got home from school making comments about the same.

>

> BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I work

> in the community so know who she is just by being around.

>

> This is all really freaky!

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>

>

>

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

322 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:17pm

Subject: What is a weblog?..... memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

I hadn't even heard the term until reading the article in the paper

today and I am on the internet all day.

 

It is freaky but I suppose also understandable that we hadn't heard

anything. I read where she used a PO box in Newton. That is a

community of 16,000 or more about 20 minutes from us. We wouldn't

hear anything about it there -- now if the PO Box had been here in

town (a town of about 1,400) we probably would have heard something.

 

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> > How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

> > Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought

> our

> > weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids

just

> > got home from school making comments about the same.

> >

> > BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I

> work

> > in the community so know who she is just by being around.

> >

> > This is all really freaky!

>

> For us, Kaycee was a presence online, whose location wasn't

> originally known. (Everything online is within arm's reach.) We

only

> located your town after we started investigating. For you, it's

> something local and immediate. For us, it's someplace "out there".

> Her main site was actually hosted in (I believe) California,

through

> the good graces of someone in Hong Kong. I happen to be in San

Diego,

> and people involved in this are in Toronto, and San Francisco, and

> Chicago, and all over the place. We've got some Brits in it, too.

> This was really a global thing.

>

> For you it's strange because she's just down the block. For us the

> whole thing is electronic.

>

> And you're not kidding about it being freaky. It was even more

freaky

> as it was unfolding and we kept discovering more and more.

 

 

323 From: "Tara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:18pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... tara@...

Send Email

 

>Has anyone even heard anything on Mr. Swenson?

 

apart from the fact there is a "Tom" on the swenson family site, nada.

 

T.

 

 

324 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:19pm

Subject: I have seen him at ballgames.... memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

but that is about it. Since basketball season is now over I haven't

seen in a few weeks.

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Has anyone even heard anything on Mr. Swenson?

>

>

> I've been following the weblogs for months after finding bwg's

site and

> emailed my support and sympathy to Debbie. Looking back on it

all, it

> does seem pretty funny that I believed in the whole Kaycee

construct. I

> remember thinking at one point that she was just too much of a

Pollyanna

> and couldn't possibly be that perky under the circumstances.

Then I

> chided myself for being too cynical! Live and learn.

>

> I imagine Debbie to be quite a wacko and I wonder if her

neighbors ever

> had a clue. Julie's mother hinted that she had her suspicions

about

> Debbie and her 'admiration' for Julie, but nothing else has been

said.

> As someone from the community, what do you know of the Swensons?

How is

> Mr. Swenson taking all of this?

>

> Peggy

>

> memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

>

> > How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am

from

> > Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we

bought our

> > weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids

just

> > got home from school making comments about the same.

> >

> > BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am --

I work

> > in the community so know who she is just by being around.

> >

> > This is all really freaky!

> >

> >

> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> > kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@y...

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@y...

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

 

 

325 From: "Laurie"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:20pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... wallflower67@...

Send Email

 

I linked to "Kaycee"'s weblog through a cancer support group, and then

Debbie's weblog through Kaycee's. I read them both off and on for

about 8 months. I WAS a bit suspicious at the end, and went to

CollegeClub.com to see if I could find any real history of her there.

When I discovered how much of a presence she had been there, and the

Tazwoman, kutebabe, and Debbie web pages with pictures, I figured no

one would go to that much trouble for that long to create a false

personna. I've tweaked a few details in my online profiles myself

over the years, and after a while, it takes real effort to be, well,

fake. And that's just minor stuff like location and looks.

 

I can see how if Debbie was really just trying to tell a story, it

could have gotten out of control. I can see why Kelli put up Julie's

pics to impress guys. But Debbie went out on a psych limb when she

created her web page dedicated to Kaycee, with baby pics on up

through high school dances. THAT is pretty creepy.

 

I wonder if anyone has an idea as to when Kelli stopped playing the

role and Debbie picked it up. Obviously, before the leukemia hit, but

I suppose we'll never know.

 

Laurie

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

> Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought

our

> weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids just

> got home from school making comments about the same.

>

> BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I

work

> in the community so know who she is just by being around.

>

> This is all really freaky!

 

 

326 From: "Tiffany Ring"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:23pm

Subject: RE: What is a weblog?..... tif@...

Send Email

 

A weblog is basically an online journal. My Intellectual Suicide site is my "blog".

 

Tiffany Ring-Mulroy

  • Deco-Rations Design

 

  • Intellectual Suicide

 

-----Original Message-----

From: memorable_for_you2001@yahoo.com [mailto:memorable_for_you2001@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 4:18 PM

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Subject: kaycee-nicole What is a weblog?.....

 

 

I hadn't even heard the term until reading the article in the paper

today and I am on the internet all day.

 

It is freaky but I suppose also understandable that we hadn't heard

anything. I read where she used a PO box in Newton. That is a

community of 16,000 or more about 20 minutes from us. We wouldn't

hear anything about it there -- now if the PO Box had been here in

town (a town of about 1,400) we probably would have heard something.

 

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> > How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

> > Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought

> our

> > weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids

just

> > got home from school making comments about the same.

> >

> > BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I

> work

> > in the community so know who she is just by being around.

> >

> > This is all really freaky!

>

> For us, Kaycee was a presence online, whose location wasn't

> originally known. (Everything online is within arm's reach.) We

only

> located your town after we started investigating. For you, it's

> something local and immediate. For us, it's someplace "out there".

> Her main site was actually hosted in (I believe) California,

through

> the good graces of someone in Hong Kong. I happen to be in San

Diego,

> and people involved in this are in Toronto, and San Francisco, and

> Chicago, and all over the place. We've got some Brits in it, too.

> This was really a global thing.

>

> For you it's strange because she's just down the block. For us the

> whole thing is electronic.

>

> And you're not kidding about it being freaky. It was even more

freaky

> as it was unfolding and we kept discovering more and more.

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

327 From: "Tiffany Ring"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:25pm

Subject: RE: What is a weblog?..... tif@...

Send Email

 

Also, have you ever used the chat client mIRC? http://www.mirc.com

 

There's a group of us in a chat room, discussing this. You are welcome to join us (we'll walk you through getting there!)

 

Tiffany Ring-Mulroy

  • Deco-Rations Design

 

  • Intellectual Suicide

 

-----Original Message-----

From: memorable_for_you2001@yahoo.com [mailto:memorable_for_you2001@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 4:18 PM

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Subject: kaycee-nicole What is a weblog?.....

 

 

I hadn't even heard the term until reading the article in the paper

today and I am on the internet all day.

 

It is freaky but I suppose also understandable that we hadn't heard

anything. I read where she used a PO box in Newton. That is a

community of 16,000 or more about 20 minutes from us. We wouldn't

hear anything about it there -- now if the PO Box had been here in

town (a town of about 1,400) we probably would have heard something.

 

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> > How did you find out about Kaycee in the first place? I am from

> > Peabody and didn't know a thing about any of this until we bought

> our

> > weekly paper this morning. This is quite the story -- my kids

just

> > got home from school making comments about the same.

> >

> > BTW, I am not Debbie nor would Debbie have a clue who I am -- I

> work

> > in the community so know who she is just by being around.

> >

> > This is all really freaky!

>

> For us, Kaycee was a presence online, whose location wasn't

> originally known. (Everything online is within arm's reach.) We

only

> located your town after we started investigating. For you, it's

> something local and immediate. For us, it's someplace "out there".

> Her main site was actually hosted in (I believe) California,

through

> the good graces of someone in Hong Kong. I happen to be in San

Diego,

> and people involved in this are in Toronto, and San Francisco, and

> Chicago, and all over the place. We've got some Brits in it, too.

> This was really a global thing.

>

> For you it's strange because she's just down the block. For us the

> whole thing is electronic.

>

> And you're not kidding about it being freaky. It was even more

freaky

> as it was unfolding and we kept discovering more and more.

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

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328 From: centrsgrrl@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:32pm

Subject: msnbc quotes centrsgrrl@...

Send Email

 

they didn't discover julie's identity until tuesday morning like at

3:00 am cst. the article is totally wrong. we think we know why

though. denise@...

 

 

329 From: "halcyon"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:55pm

Subject: my feelings halcyon@...

Send Email

 

I just sent this out to my email list. Figured some people here

might care, too.

****

 

 

Part of me feels like I should apologize. I introduced MANY people to

her and her story. I knew Kaycee for 2 years. I was inspired by her.

I loved her. I wanted to share what she brought into my life.

 

It turns out that Kaycee was not a real person. Apparently she was

the construct of Debbie Swenson, who had said she was Kaycee's

mom.

 

As the hoax unfolded, some people suspected that I was involved.

(Thank you to everyone who defended me.)

 

A few others simply felt I was a "compassion Nazi." Or that

I was exploiting Kaycee to intentionally pull at people's

heartstrings

or further my church of optimism. *sigh* I'm bothered that

spreading optimism is even considered a bad thing.

 

Most people understood that I was simply fooled.

 

If you believed because you trusted my judgment, I'm sorry I led

you wrong.

But I should warn you: I may do it again.

 

I'm try to be a compassionate person. I work very hard at

increasing the amount of love I project to the world and its

inhabitants. I intentionally strip down my defenses. I try to

embrace my vulnerability. I have a long way to go, but this is part

of my personal journey.

 

THE UPSIDE: I am gaining a greater and greater feeling of

connectedness to people. My relationships with loved ones,

strangers, and my environment are more intense and rewarding, the

more vulnerability I achieve.

 

THE DOWNSIDE: I'm easily taken advantage of.

 

As it is VERY clear right now: Being taken advantage of stings. And

it can make you feel foolish. But in my eyes, it would be far more

foolish to stay guarded and not experience the joy of connecting with

people.

 

Some people are using this experience as a reason to not get close to

people you haven't met in the flesh. I disagree whole-heartedly

with that conclusion. Being human can be painful. We get burned in

real life, too. The internet element simply adds a few more tools

for the dishonest.

I've been online for years. In that time I have met thousands of

amazing people. My life has been enriched immeasurably by the love

I've exchanged in this digital realm. In that context, the price of

one hoax doesn't seem that bad.

Does it hurt? Of course!! but I would gladly take this sting in

exchange for all the goodness I've received from keeping my heart

open.

 

*****

 

So, yes, I AM HURTING.

Ol' Mr. Compassion is having a hard time just "shaking this

off."

Kaycee was not a piece of writing that I thought was true and then

learned was false. This was a person who developed a friendship with

me over a period of YEARS. They sent me presents on my birthday.

Left me sob-filled voicemails. Sent photographs of themselves.

 

So even though I am spared the grieving of a little girl's death,

I am still grieving the death of *something*. It's disorienting.

 

Sometimes I even feel a sense of vertigo.

 

*****

 

It's interesting, I was wounded twice on Sunday. First by the

news

of deceit in my life. Secondly when I chose to have my left nipple

pierced. I was planning on doing the piercing for my 30th bday, but

the events of the hoax made my desire for a dramatic life experience

more urgent.

 

The symbolism of the piercing took a direction I didn't expect.

The

piercing has been slow to heal. Each day I think it's better, and

each day I see blood from the still-fresh wound. It aches almost

constantly.

 

But both wounds *will* heal.

 

*****

 

Radio show today at 5 pacific: I'll be talking about all this.

Feel free to call in with your perspectives, or with questions for me

about it.

:::::: http://www.citizenx.com/lounge/lounge.asp?id=18

and a HugNation group hug afterwards at 6pm.

 

Recent writings of mine about this:

::::: http://cockywrds.diaryland.com/010519_86.html - my suspicion

::::: http://cockywrds.diaryland.com/010520_63.html - it is a hoax

 

Interview with me about this:

:::::

http://netconference.about.com/internet/netconference/library/weekly/a

a052201c.htm

 

the Kaycee FAQ

::::: http://rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26

 

I just need a little time to work through my feelings and get my

bearings again.

Thanks for all the love. I can feel it working.

-John

styn.net

 

 

330 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:06pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... sarapture@...

Send Email

 

Think about it though...He must have known...What if someone called and

asked for "Kaycee" and he answered the phone?

 

For those of you who actually spoke to "Kaycee" and Debbie, what was

the usual protocal for reaching her on the phone? Did you ever call her

at the "hospital"? Do you think that Kaycee and Debbie were the same

person?

 

Wow, this is complicated...How did she ever pull this off?

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Louise Butler" wrote:

> > How is Mr. Swenson taking all of this?

>

> Good question!!

>

> I can't imagine what I'd be doing right now if I was Mr. Swenson.

 

 

331 From: "Sara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:06pm

Subject: Re: How did you all find out about this......... sarapture@...

Send Email

 

Think about it though...He must have known...What if someone called and

asked for "Kaycee" and he answered the phone?

 

For those of you who actually spoke to "Kaycee" and Debbie, what was

the usual protocal for reaching her on the phone? Did you ever call her

at the "hospital"? Do you think that Kaycee and Debbie were the same

person?

 

Wow, this is complicated...How did she ever pull this off?

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Louise Butler" wrote:

> > How is Mr. Swenson taking all of this?

>

> Good question!!

>

> I can't imagine what I'd be doing right now if I was Mr. Swenson.

 

332 From: "Jon Sullivan"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18pm

Subject: Re: What is a weblog?..... jon@...

Send Email

 

It means different things depending on your audience. For most of the

people I know it means a daily list of interesting links with

commentary.

 

So for me a "weblog" is a bit different than a Web journal or web

diary.

 

So Kaycee had a "web journal", but camworld.com is more of a

traditional "weblog." Weblogs are sometimes called "blogs."

 

Most "web logger" sites, including mine, are some combination of

journal and log.

 

Jon Sullivan

www.jonsullivan.com

 

 

333 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:22pm

Subject: Re: What is a weblog?..... memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

Thanks for all the explanations -- I guess I haven't been surfing in

all the right places.

 

 

334 From: dhartung@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:41pm

Subject: Re: What is a weblog?..... dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> I hadn't even heard the term until reading the article in the paper

> today and I am on the internet all day.

 

They're new and old. Basically a homepage with links or comments,

updated daily. They're as old as the web, really, but new tools (like

Blogger.com) let you make and update one very easily, so now there

are tens of thousands of them.

 

It's not like a group chatroom or mailing list (like this place),

because it's your own space and you can take as much space as you

like to discuss a topic or get as personal and "off-topic" as you

like.

 

Generally you find one iether by interacting with people in a place

like this, or through a link in another person's weblog. Some people

visit the same weblogs every day.

 

The Kaycee weblog was mostly found by "Kaycee" posting in boards like

CitizenX.com, or through recommendations from other weblogs such as

Halcyon's Cockybastard.org. Halcyon is very popular and knows a lot

of people, so that helped "Kaycee" get well known very quickly. When

people had doubts, there were unimpeachable people like Halcyon to

say that "Kaycee" was real, even though all the evidence that most of

us had was her weblog.

 

 

335 From: wickedstormy@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:42pm

Subject: Re: my feelings wickedstormy@...

Send Email

 

I can't keep silent anymore, either. I guess a lot of people feel

that way. I met KC, from CitizenX. But Hal, I have never faulted nor

suspected you in any of this. I feel the weight of anguish you and

BWG must be going through. It's a horried, dripping feeling. I hate

it. I hate it happened to such good, caring, talented people. But

then, in a way it happened to all of us that took the time to care.

To read, listen, to love.

 

You are right, John. WE can't stop being vulnerable. If we do, we

lose out on life's sometimes, overwhelming sting. But that sting is a

teacher, both good and bad. And, wonderful. I just wanted you to

know, I feel it too.

 

{{{{Hal}}}}

{{{{BWG}}}}

 

-- Stormy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "halcyon" wrote:

> I just sent this out to my email list. Figured some people here

> might care, too.

> ****

>

>

> Part of me feels like I should apologize. I introduced MANY people

to

> her and her story. I knew Kaycee for 2 years. I was inspired by

her.

> I loved her. I wanted to share what she brought into my life.

>

> It turns out that Kaycee was not a real person. Apparently she was

> the construct of Debbie Swenson, who had said she was Kaycee's

> mom.

>

> As the hoax unfolded, some people suspected that I was involved.

> (Thank you to everyone who defended me.)

>

> A few others simply felt I was a "compassion Nazi." Or that

> I was exploiting Kaycee to intentionally pull at people's

> heartstrings

> or further my church of optimism. *sigh* I'm bothered that

> spreading optimism is even considered a bad thing.

>

> Most people understood that I was simply fooled.

>

> If you believed because you trusted my judgment, I'm sorry I led

> you wrong.

> But I should warn you: I may do it again.

>

> I'm try to be a compassionate person. I work very hard at

> increasing the amount of love I project to the world and its

> inhabitants. I intentionally strip down my defenses. I try to

> embrace my vulnerability. I have a long way to go, but this is

part

> of my personal journey.

>

> THE UPSIDE: I am gaining a greater and greater feeling of

> connectedness to people. My relationships with loved ones,

> strangers, and my environment are more intense and rewarding, the

> more vulnerability I achieve.

>

> THE DOWNSIDE: I'm easily taken advantage of.

>

> As it is VERY clear right now: Being taken advantage of stings.

And

> it can make you feel foolish. But in my eyes, it would be far

more

> foolish to stay guarded and not experience the joy of connecting

with

> people.

>

> Some people are using this experience as a reason to not get close

to

> people you haven't met in the flesh. I disagree whole-heartedly

> with that conclusion. Being human can be painful. We get burned

in

> real life, too. The internet element simply adds a few more tools

> for the dishonest.

> I've been online for years. In that time I have met thousands of

> amazing people. My life has been enriched immeasurably by the love

> I've exchanged in this digital realm. In that context, the price

of

> one hoax doesn't seem that bad.

> Does it hurt? Of course!! but I would gladly take this sting in

> exchange for all the goodness I've received from keeping my heart

> open.

>

> *****

>

> So, yes, I AM HURTING.

> Ol' Mr. Compassion is having a hard time just "shaking this

> off."

> Kaycee was not a piece of writing that I thought was true and then

> learned was false. This was a person who developed a friendship

with

> me over a period of YEARS. They sent me presents on my birthday.

> Left me sob-filled voicemails. Sent photographs of themselves.

>

> So even though I am spared the grieving of a little girl's death,

> I am still grieving the death of *something*. It's disorienting.

>

> Sometimes I even feel a sense of vertigo.

>

> *****

>

> It's interesting, I was wounded twice on Sunday. First by the

> news

> of deceit in my life. Secondly when I chose to have my left nipple

> pierced. I was planning on doing the piercing for my 30th bday,

but

> the events of the hoax made my desire for a dramatic life

experience

> more urgent.

>

> The symbolism of the piercing took a direction I didn't expect.

> The

> piercing has been slow to heal. Each day I think it's better, and

> each day I see blood from the still-fresh wound. It aches almost

> constantly.

>

> But both wounds *will* heal.

>

> *****

>

> Radio show today at 5 pacific: I'll be talking about all this.

> Feel free to call in with your perspectives, or with questions for

me

> about it.

> :::::: http://www.citizenx.com/lounge/lounge.asp?id=18

> and a HugNation group hug afterwards at 6pm.

>

> Recent writings of mine about this:

> ::::: http://cockywrds.diaryland.com/010519_86.html - my suspicion

> ::::: http://cockywrds.diaryland.com/010520_63.html - it is a hoax

>

> Interview with me about this:

> :::::

>

http://netconference.about.com/internet/netconference/library/weekly/a

> a052201c.htm

>

> the Kaycee FAQ

> ::::: http://rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26

>

> I just need a little time to work through my feelings and get my

> bearings again.

> Thanks for all the love. I can feel it working.

> -John

> styn.net

 

 

336 From: "Lisa R"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:46pm

Subject: Paul Harvey on Kaycee voodoo@...

Send Email

 

If you want to hear the Paul Harvey show blip on Kaycee:

 

http://www.paulharvey.com/home.shtml

 

 

Click on "today's noon news"

 

 

337 From: Ryan Kawailani Ozawa

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:48pm

Subject: RE: What is a weblog?..... ozawa@...

Send Email

 

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Tiffany Ring wrote:

> A weblog is basically an online journal. My Intellectual Suicide site

> is my "blog".

 

Actually, weblogs or 'blogs were initially nothing of the sort, but

since the 'journal/diary' use of the format is damn near the majority

now, most folks use the terms interchangably.

 

http://www.diarist.net/guide/blogjournal.shtml

http://www.chymes.org/hyper/weblogs.htmlp

 

To build on what Jon Sullivan posted, to some folks (like me) the

distinction is significant - insofar as online diaries were a building

genre years before 'blogs surfaced - but they _exploded_, and as far as

I'm concerned, more of that kind of personal storytelling is (usually,

ahem) a good thing - no matter what you call it.

 

--

Ryan Kawailani Ozawa

In Medias Res - We now join an island life, already in progress.

imr@... | http://www.lightfantastic.org/imr/

 

 

338 From: "Eve"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:52pm

Subject: Debbie called Julie's Mom? angelwng@...

Send Email

 

I'm rather stunned and not just a little curious about that.

 

 

339 From: Oliver Willis

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:04pm

Subject: RE: What is a weblog?..... owillis@...

Send Email

 

Then for some folks like me, I see my blog as sort of

an "opinion column" where I spout off on issues (often

political) I care about.

 

--- Ryan Kawailani Ozawa wrote:

> On Wed, 23 May 2001, Tiffany Ring wrote:

> > A weblog is basically an online journal. My

> Intellectual Suicide site

> > is my "blog".

 

 

 

=====

Oliver Willis

www.oliverwillis.com

owillis@...

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

340 From: eckeric@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:09pm

Subject: Re: What is a weblog?..... eckeric@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> I guess I haven't been surfing in all the right places.

 

I wouldn't say that. The internet is a big place, everyone finds

something different.

 

 

341 From: "Sara L. Olesen"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:10pm

Subject: Kansas TV station news story sara@...

--

Sara - Censored, but not silenced.

http://crunchblogger.tripod.com

 

 

342 From: Laura Stabler

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:09am

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story lstabler@...

Send Email

 

At 06:10 PM 5/23/01 -0500, you wrote:

>http://www.kwch.com/MGBGK4ZN3NC.html

 

 

<"I couldn't believe it," Julie said about the moment she learned her face

was used in the hoax. "It was shocking.">

 

The press have reached Julie, I see.

 

 

Laura (aka Elfgirl)

website: http://www.elfgirl.org/

blog: http://www.elfgirl.org/thorns/

 

 

343 From: acridrabbit@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:14pm

Subject: mirc acridrabbit@...

Send Email

 

Hi everyone,

 

While I've been an internet user since 1996, I have never been an IRC

or mIRC user, and I'm finding it incredibly frustrating to try to

join you all in the mIRC chat. Since everyone's abandoned the Yahoo

chat, I'm feeling all bereft and lonesome.

 

I'd love to join the chat - is there anyone who'd be willing to pop

back onto the Yahoo chat and walk me through this? I'd be eternally

grateful. Please post here and let me know.

 

Sincerely, feeling like a dummy,

acrid

 

 

344 From: "Louise Butler"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:15pm

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story lou@...

 

"Kaycee Swenson's weblog -- an online journal -- was one of the most

popular.

 

In fact it developed a following so big the New York Times even mentioned it

in a story."

 

Thats untrue, right? She was mentioned in NYT regarding CollegeClub & dorm

life, yes?

 

 

345 From: "Tara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:15pm

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story tara@...

Send Email

 

first part of the article looks quite inaccurate to me.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Sara L. Olesen

To:

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:10 AM

Subject: kaycee-nicole Kansas TV station news story

 

 

> http://www.kwch.com/MGBGK4ZN3NC.html

> --

> Sara - Censored, but not silenced.

> http://crunchblogger.tripod.com

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

 

 

346 From: "Tara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:19pm

Subject: Re: mirc tara@...

Send Email

 

there's a bunch of people in there waiting for you ; )

Tara

Je réponds au mieux de mes connaissances...

Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org

Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net

----- Original Message -----

From:

To:

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:14 AM

Subject: kaycee-nicole mirc

 

 

> Hi everyone,

>

> While I've been an internet user since 1996, I have never been an

IRC

> or mIRC user, and I'm finding it incredibly frustrating to try to

> join you all in the mIRC chat. Since everyone's abandoned the Yahoo

> chat, I'm feeling all bereft and lonesome.

>

> I'd love to join the chat - is there anyone who'd be willing to pop

> back onto the Yahoo chat and walk me through this? I'd be eternally

> grateful. Please post here and let me know.

>

> Sincerely, feeling like a dummy,

> acrid

>

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

 

 

347 From:

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:23pm

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story jr@...

Send Email

 

Yes, you correct. NY times was about dorm life and puter use.

----- Original Message -----

From: Louise Butler

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: kaycee-nicole Kansas TV station news story

 

 

> http://www.kwch.com/MGBGK4ZN3NC.html

 

"Kaycee Swenson's weblog -- an online journal -- was one of the most

popular.

 

In fact it developed a following so big the New York Times even mentioned it

in a story."

 

Thats untrue, right? She was mentioned in NYT regarding CollegeClub & dorm

life, yes?

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

348 From: "Tara"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:25pm

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story tara@...

Send Email

 

and it gives the impression the blog thing lasted two years... and

that the daughter came up with the cancer idea... and that KC

supposedly died of cancer... etc... etc...

anyone feel like making a list and protesting?

; )

Tara

 

 

349 From: guanyao@...

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:35pm

Subject: just on MSNBC tv guanyao@...

Send Email

 

This was just talked about briefly on MSNBC tv

 

 

350 From:

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:56pm

Subject: Halcyons show jr@...

Send Email

 

Halcyon's Show starts in 5 minutes

 

http://www.citizenx.com/lounge/lounge.asp?id=18

----- Original Message -----

From: Tara

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: kaycee-nicole mirc

 

 

there's a bunch of people in there waiting for you ; )

Tara

Je réponds au mieux de mes connaissances...

Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org

Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net

----- Original Message -----

From:

To:

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:14 AM

Subject: kaycee-nicole mirc

 

 

> Hi everyone,

>

> While I've been an internet user since 1996, I have never been an

IRC

> or mIRC user, and I'm finding it incredibly frustrating to try to

> join you all in the mIRC chat. Since everyone's abandoned the Yahoo

> chat, I'm feeling all bereft and lonesome.

>

> I'd love to join the chat - is there anyone who'd be willing to pop

> back onto the Yahoo chat and walk me through this? I'd be eternally

> grateful. Please post here and let me know.

>

> Sincerely, feeling like a dummy,

> acrid

>

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

352 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:14am

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...

Send Email

 

Ok, that was SO uncalled for. Moron. People make mistakes. Leave Halcyon alone.

You sound like a pathetic emotional junkie who could use professional

counseling.

 

Thanks for the warning, the next time you find other loser like

Debbie to moan with and share your 'feelings' we'll make a point not

to gather 'round and watch the two of you roll around in your

emotional vomit.

 

Maybe you could get your brain pierced next time and save everyone a

lot of grief and time.

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

353 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:39am

Subject: Halcyon's show this evening... memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

I have been listening to Halcyon's show tonight. I just found out

about Kaycee when I got our town's newspaper and read the story about

my neighbor who has been subjecting all of you to her hoax. This is

all very strange to know that this happened in our little town. I

don't know the Swensons but I certainly know who they are.

 

Tonight on the show someone mentioned that it would be poetic justice

if Debbie's daughter got cancer and that he would be praying for it.

I can gather by what I have read today that MANY of you were taken in

by the story and had sincere feelings for her. However, Kelli

Swenson is a freshman in high school. In all likelihood she has

nothing to do with this horrible scheme of her mother's. I think it

is a shame for a grown man to wish such a horrible thing on someone

who is probably a total innocent in this whole matter.

 

I know you are hurting and very, very angry -- please don't be

hurtful back at an innocent.

 

 

354 From: commidd@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:50am

Subject: Re: Halcyon's show this evening... commidd@...

Send Email

 

Well said.

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> I have been listening to Halcyon's show tonight. I just found out

> about Kaycee when I got our town's newspaper and read the story

about

> my neighbor who has been subjecting all of you to her hoax. This

is

> all very strange to know that this happened in our little town. I

> don't know the Swensons but I certainly know who they are.

>

> Tonight on the show someone mentioned that it would be poetic

justice

> if Debbie's daughter got cancer and that he would be praying for

it.

> I can gather by what I have read today that MANY of you were taken

in

> by the story and had sincere feelings for her. However, Kelli

> Swenson is a freshman in high school. In all likelihood she has

> nothing to do with this horrible scheme of her mother's. I think

it

> is a shame for a grown man to wish such a horrible thing on someone

> who is probably a total innocent in this whole matter.

>

> I know you are hurting and very, very angry -- please don't be

> hurtful back at an innocent.

 

 

356 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:58am

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...

Send Email

 

Oh, please don't cry, I am SO sorry I hurt your feelings.

 

Just don't hit me with your purse...

 

Doesn't anyone here have tattoos, own a gun or a Harley? [the guys, i

mean...]

 

 

Tattoo? yes. piercings? yes. Guns? Many. Harley? Can't afford it yet.

 

J.R. Salzman

www.logboy.com/jr/

 

 

 

 

358 From: "Tiffany Ring"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:01am

Subject: RE: Re: Halcyon's show this evening... tif@...

Send Email

 

*sigh* that kind of stuff is completely uncalled for. Wishing death on anyone is, well, just as sick as what they did, in my never-to-be-humble opinion.

 

Tiffany Ring-Mulroy

  • Deco-Rations Design

 

  • Intellectual Suicide

 

-----Original Message-----

From: velocityiseverything@yahoo.com [mailto:velocityiseverything@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:58 PM

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: Halcyon's show this evening...

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> I have been listening to Halcyon's show tonight

 

>However, Kelli Swenson is a freshman in high school. In all

>likelihood she has

> nothing to do with this horrible scheme of her mother's

 

According to the faq on this group Kelli and her pals started the

whole thing and Debbie just took it to a logical conclusion.

 

This whole family is a bunch of emotion fuckers and I hope they die a

slow and humiliating death at the hands of large dangerous escaped

Negroes...

 

You know, like 'In Cold Blood', that was in Kansaw too.

 

 

 

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359 From: dhartung@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:02am

Subject: Re: my feelings dhartung@...

Send Email

 

The member velocityiseverything@... has been banned for this

uncalled-for personal attack.

 

 

360 From: truesolace00@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:06am

Subject: Re: Halcyon's show this evening... truesolace00@...

Send Email

 

Wait a minute..

 

How dare you use the terms Negros in your last remarks...I'm an

African American and I'm offended that you would use that statement

in reference to this matter....I understand your anguish and yes

these are sick individuals but your last remark was uncalled for. I

wanted to let you know that I don't appreciate it. :(

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> > I have been listening to Halcyon's show tonight

>

> >However, Kelli Swenson is a freshman in high school. In all

> >likelihood she has

> > nothing to do with this horrible scheme of her mother's

>

> According to the faq on this group Kelli and her pals started the

> whole thing and Debbie just took it to a logical conclusion.

>

> This whole family is a bunch of emotion fuckers and I hope they die

a

> slow and humiliating death at the hands of large dangerous escaped

> Negroes...

>

> You know, like 'In Cold Blood', that was in Kansaw too.

 

 

361 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:10am

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings jr@...

Send Email

 

Thank you. In all this confusion, in all this dooms day type situation, we need to remain civil to one another.

The member velocityiseverything@yahoo.com has been banned for this

uncalled-for personal attack.

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

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362 From: Michelle KinseyClinton

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:11am

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings sapphir3blu3@...

Send Email

 

Okay. Enough chest-beating. Could we not flame one

another, please, as this whole situation is messy

enough without mancatfighting?

 

 

m

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

363 From: policraticus@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:40am

Subject: Re: MS NBC Coverage policraticus@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., commidd@y... wrote:

> > Noticed that the story at MS NBC has been changed to

> > include this:

> >

> > "The alleged photographs of Kaycee turned out to be images

> > of a Swenson family friend who was a high school

> > basketball star.

> >

> > "The girl's mother, who ask that their names not be printed,

> > told MSNBC.com she had no idea her daughter's image was

> > posted on the Internet for the past year, that her visual identity

> > had been stolen. She only found out about the incident when

> > Debbie called her Monday night to apologize."

>

> I thought she found out yesterday morning when one of ours

> called her. What the hell is going on here?

 

Odd... the e-mail from centrs (printed at the bottom of the FAQ at

http://rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26) says she phoned them

on tuesday morning... but it *doesn't* actually say they didn't

know about the whole thing beforehand, which could make

sense in a number of ways...

 

-n/a

(who has had nothing to do with this except for accusing centrs

of being involved once before, and who therefore felt he ought to

defend her here)

 

 

364 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:49am

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Tara" wrote:

> first part of the article looks quite inaccurate to me.

 

It said that Kaycee's death had been from cancer. Actually it was

supposedly an aneurysm.

 

365 From: "Peggy Butterworth"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:51am

Subject: Re: Halcyon's show this evening... pbutterw@...

Send Email

 

That man didn't speak for the group and he didn't speak for me. I was

appalled at his comment too. I'm hoping he meant something like how ironic

such a thing would be... almost like Debbie's wish would be granted. I know

I feel sorry for Kelli, having to live in the shadow of Kaycee for all these

months. What kind of message was she sent? She didn't look like the cute,

perky basketball star that her mother dreamed up.

 

Peggy

----- Original Message -----

From:

> Tonight on the show someone mentioned that it would be poetic justice

> if Debbie's daughter got cancer and that he would be praying for it.

> I can gather by what I have read today that MANY of you were taken in

> by the story and had sincere feelings for her. However, Kelli

> Swenson is a freshman in high school. In all likelihood she has

> nothing to do with this horrible scheme of her mother's. I think it

> is a shame for a grown man to wish such a horrible thing on someone

> who is probably a total innocent in this whole matter.

>

> I know you are hurting and very, very angry -- please don't be

> hurtful back at an innocent.

 

 

366 From: "Jim"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:56am

Subject: The BWG Involved In Another Hoax!? jim@...

Send Email

 

I have just exposed Randy "The BWG" van der Woning -

http://www.jimformation.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alright, it's a joke ... but we need some levity.

 

Sorry. :)

 

 

367 From: jen.clifford@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:03am

Subject: Re: mirc jen.clifford@...

Send Email

 

I'm going to pop into the Yahoo chat for a few minutes now - I can try

to explain it to you if you're around now.

 

Jen

 

 

368 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:11am

Subject: Re: Halcyon's show this evening... mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., velocityiseverything@y... wrote:

> This whole family is a bunch of emotion fuckers and I hope they die

a

> slow and humiliating death at the hands of large dangerous escaped

> Negroes...

 

To: Dan Hartung

 

I don't know what kind of moderation policies you had in mind when

this list was established, but I think velocity has made a pretty

good argument that you should ban trolls.

 

 

369 From: "Kristin"

Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:26pm

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story tokristin@...

Send Email

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Tara"

 

 

 

> and it gives the impression the blog thing lasted two years... and

> that the daughter came up with the cancer idea... and that KC

> supposedly died of cancer... etc... etc...

> anyone feel like making a list and protesting?

 

No one has any proof that this isn't true, either.

 

There is so much wild conjecture out there - don't assume that if you see it

on this list, or on metafilter, it is fact. All anyone really knows is that

a woman named Debbie Swenson rented a PO box, a guy calling himself BWG

hosted her site, and Halcyon Styn promoted the hell out it. And that is all

you all know.

 

The FAQ is a strange compendium of information and assumption - it isn't

'the truth' by any stretch of the imagination. The best example of that is

the 'fact' that the hoax started with Debbie's daughter, and that she only

took it over later. When the fact comes from a liar, don't start calling it

the truth. Unless it is easier for you to believe that an 11 year old girl

pulled this con together, which is about how old Kelli Swenson would have

been when it all started.

 

When I first started questioning the whole Kaycee story, what struck me was

how terrifying the mob around her was - within a day of posting a brief

comment stating I thought it was a hoax, I had an inbox of email - hateful,

viscious email., tonnes of it defending her reality with a zealotry - it was

frightening, frightening stuff. Death threats kind of stuff. Some of it from

people on this list. But now it is the same mob, and same mob mentality,

only on the other side. I still see a lot of foot stomping, and a lot of

'proof' based on the "It is true because it is true" theorem. The same

flawed logic and cobbled together philosophies they used to prove her

existence are being used here to prove other people were involved, or to

blame.

 

Innocent people always proclaim their innocence. So do the guilty. You are

never going to know what really happened. Strip away what you have heard

from other people online, what you read somewhere, what Debbie said when she

confessed, and ask yourself: What exactly can I prove to be true? Precious

little.

 

Kristin Thomas

 

http://www.sperare.com

 

 

370 From: ann@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:41am

Subject: Burned by Kaycee? ann@...

Send Email

 

Yep, we fell for it too. After the sadness and anger, it's time to

find the humor in it all. Soo... I've made some lovely t-shirts to

show our pride in being "Burned by Kaycee"! Check them out at

http://www.cafepress.com/kayceeBurn

 

 

371 From: "Tiffany Ring"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:47am

Subject: RE: Burned by Kaycee? tif@...

Send Email

 

well....personally, I think it's sad you are trying to profit from this. At least Debbie had the T-shirts at cost.

 

Tiffany Ring-Mulroy

  • Deco-Rations Design

 

  • Intellectual Suicide

 

-----Original Message-----

From: ann@austin.rr.com [mailto:ann@austin.rr.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:42 PM

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Subject: kaycee-nicole Burned by Kaycee?

 

 

Yep, we fell for it too. After the sadness and anger, it's time to

find the humor in it all. Soo... I've made some lovely t-shirts to

show our pride in being "Burned by Kaycee"! Check them out at

http://www.cafepress.com/kayceeBurn

 

 

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372 From: "Roberta Africa-Johnson"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:53am

Subject: Re: my feelings schwanze69@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Thank you. In all this confusion, in all this dooms day type

situation, we need to remain civil to one another.

> The member velocityiseverything@y... has been banned for this

> uncalled-for personal attack.

 

So this is like nuclear war in the USA, right?

 

Or is it Armageddon?

 

Since a lot of people here have been bagging on Debbie and her

viscous spawn, 'velocity' took it a bit further and wished them a

slow death at the hands of large dangerous escaped ****** convicts.

 

If this is the end of the world, who is the fifth horseman?

 

 

373 From: truesolace00@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:57am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? truesolace00@...

Send Email

 

I am sorry but to literally promote t-shirts over a situation as

sickening as this is appaling. It would be as if we are glorifying

the fact that Debbie as done this charadef. The shirt concept is

*inappropiate*.

 

Kanika

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., ann@a... wrote:

> Yep, we fell for it too. After the sadness and anger, it's time to

> find the humor in it all. Soo... I've made some lovely t-shirts to

> show our pride in being "Burned by Kaycee"! Check them out at

> http://www.cafepress.com/kayceeBurn

 

 

374 From: rio@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:02am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? rio@...

Send Email

 

You have absolutely, POSTIVELY, *got* to be kidding me.

Unbelievable.

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., ann@a... wrote:

> Yep, we fell for it too. After the sadness and anger, it's time to

> find the humor in it all. Soo... I've made some lovely t-shirts to

> show our pride in being "Burned by Kaycee"! Check them out at

> http://www.cafepress.com/kayceeBurn

 

 

375 From: "Roberta Africa-Johnson"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:03am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? schwanze69@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:

> I am sorry but to literally promote t-shirts over a situation as

> sickening as this is appaling. It would be as if we are glorifying

> the fact that Debbie as done this charadef. The shirt concept is

> *inappropiate*.

>

> Kanika

 

Wasn't Debbie selling coffe cups on her site?

 

 

376 From: misssassy_pants@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:10am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? misssassy_pants@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Roberta Africa-Johnson"

wrote:

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:

> > I am sorry but to literally promote t-shirts over a situation as

> > sickening as this is appaling. It would be as if we are

glorifying

> > the fact that Debbie as done this charadef. The shirt concept is

> > *inappropiate*.

> >

> > Kanika

>

> Wasn't Debbie selling coffe cups on her site?

 

that's not the point.

 

 

377 From: "Lisa"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:10am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? lisawhirrett@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., ann@a... wrote:

> ....After the sadness and anger, it's time to

> find the humor in it all. ....

 

Sorry, but your timing is incredibly bad. Most of us can't see the

humor in this yet. Maybe someday but not now. I'd also like to echo

the sentiment that profiting off of, not to mention drawing even more

attention to, something this twisted just seems wrong.

 

***Disclaimer*** This is my personal opinion and it's one of the

things, like my continued faith in people, that no one will ever be

able to take away from me.

 

Lisa

www.justlisa.com

 

 

378 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:10am

Subject: I just saw the story on our local station..... memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

and they interviewed Julie Fullbright. According to Julie, Debbie

called her and told her about it but she didn't think it was that big

a deal and that it would blow over. Then she started looking around

on the internet and found a website with at least a dozen pictures of

her as "Kaycee".

 

I think I have read today some differences in maybe Julie's side. I

thought I would tell you what she said on the news tonight.

 

 

379 From: ann@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:26am

Subject: Sorry...it WAS a joke. ann@...

Send Email

 

Sorry folks. It was just a joke. I didn't expect people to buy the

shirts. I thought it would be funny to be "honest" about con-ing

people. That's why the shirts read "These shirts sold totally for

profit - We're greedy, but at least we don't lie about it!" Haha.

Oh, well.

Anyway, I've removed the store.

PS Was it really ok that Debbie sold shirts at cost? What about the

gifts and contributions that she got?

 

 

380 From: "You may call me sammy."

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:31am

Subject: Re: MS NBC Coverage -- explained captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

The MSNBC article was filled with errors and innaccuracies when it

was pushed live. Ditto with the Kansas teevee story.

 

Take both with a grain of salt.

 

The Peabody newspaper and SCMP are both entirely more accurate than

the above, but both had an innaccuracy or two.

 

In other words, I'd go with the FAQ for your facts. The people that

investigated the hoax seem to understand the timeline better than the

reporters. Which is certainly understandable -- there are a lot of

needless details to any story, it's a reporter's jobs to flesh those

out.

 

 

> Odd... the e-mail from centrs (printed at the bottom of the FAQ at

> http://rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26) says she phoned them

> on tuesday morning... but it *doesn't* actually say they didn't

> know about the whole thing beforehand, which could make

> sense in a number of ways...

>

> -n/a

> (who has had nothing to do with this except for accusing centrs

> of being involved once before, and who therefore felt he ought to

> defend her here)

 

 

381 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:39am

Subject: Julie's interview memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

Did you see Julie's interview on KWCH news tonight? She said Debbie

called her Tuesday.

 

 

382 From: chris_san@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:42am

Subject: Re: Julie's interview chris_san@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> Did you see Julie's interview on KWCH news tonight? She said

Debbie called her Tuesday.

 

Is that TV? Any transcripts / webcasts available? (Though I realise

that's clutching at straws...)

 

Anything else of note in the interview, Mr/Ms Memorable?

 

 

383 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:45am

Subject: Re: Julie's interview sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> Did you see Julie's interview on KWCH news tonight? She said

Debbie

> called her Tuesday.

 

It's not clear exactly the sequence of events here. One of our own

called Julie's home at 8:30AM local time Tuesday morning and spoke to

Julie's mom. From the report of the call, it sounded like this was

the first they had heard of it. It may be that Debbie called later.

 

Did she look terribly freaked out and anxious? I've been worried

about her. This must have been quite a shock.

 

 

384 From: "Reagan Bockhold"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 3:57am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? dawoman598@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., ann@a... wrote:

> Yep, we fell for it too. After the sadness and anger, it's time to

> find the humor in it all. Soo... I've made some lovely t-shirts to

> show our pride in being "Burned by Kaycee"! Check them out at

> http://www.cafepress.com/kayceeBurn

 

 

::shakes head::

 

Oh, buddy. (eyeroll)

 

Redgie

 

redgie.blogspot.com

(if Blogspot ever works again :-) )

 

 

385 From: memorable_for_you2001@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:00am

Subject: Julie's interview on the 10:00 news memorable_for_you2001@...

Send Email

 

I haven't looked for any links since the 10:00 news so I can't answer

that question. If you want to check it out I believe their website

is www.kwch.com.

 

As far as how Julie looked -- cute as a button. She didn't look

freaked out at all. She just stated that when Debbie called

her "yesterday" she really didn't think it was any big deal -- her

picture here or there. But when she started looking she found

pictures all over the place and the news then showed a web page that

I believe was entitled something like "My All-Star" or something to

that affect. There were several pictures from baby to grown on that

page.

 

Julie looked great -- as if she was being interviewed for something

as fluffy as being named Prom Queen.

 

 

386 From: ann@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:03am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? - it was a joke ann@...

Send Email

 

Once again, it was just supposed to be a joke! The store has been

removed because people were taking it seriously.

 

 

387 From: Nemesys

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:07am

Subject: Re: Re: Burned by Kaycee? nemesys@...

Send Email

 

Reagan Bockhold wrote:

::shakes head::

Oh, buddy. (eyeroll)

 

Redgie

 

redgie.blogspot.com

(if Blogspot ever works again :-) )

 

I had to laugh at this - I just got into the blogger thing about a week ago, and had just signed up for my own blogger.com account, when this whole Kaycee thing just blew. Since then, I can barely get into my own site to update it, let alone show it to anyone else! LOL! Talk about a baptism by fire!

Scary stuff. Obviously, I never knew Kaycee, but it's been fascinating to watch this thing mushroom, and I am astonished at how much information is coming out through all the online investigation. If I ever need to track someone down, I'm gonna get in touch with some of you people!

 

On that note, I'll shut up, since I have no information to add. :c)

 

Nemesys

nemonics.blogspot.com (like Redgie said, if Blogspot EVER works again!)

 

--

Go away! Or I shall taunt you a second time!

 

 

388 From: "Reagan Bockhold"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:35am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? - it was a joke dawoman598@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., ann@a... wrote:

> Once again, it was just supposed to be a joke! The store has been

> removed because people were taking it seriously.

 

Okay, okay! geez.......(JK)

 

:-)

 

 

389 From: "Reagan Bockhold"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:38am

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? dawoman598@...

Send Email

 

> I had to laugh at this - I just got into the blogger thing about a

week ago,

> and had just signed up for my own blogger.com account, when this

whole

> Kaycee thing just blew. Since then, I can barely get into my own

site to

> update it, let alone show it to anyone else! LOL! Talk about a

baptism by

> fire!

>

> Scary stuff. Obviously, I never knew Kaycee, but it's been

fascinating to

> watch this thing mushroom, and I am astonished at how much

information is

> coming out through all the online investigation. If I ever need to

track

> someone down, I'm gonna get in touch with some of you people!

>

> On that note, I'll shut up, since I have no information to add. :c)

>

> Nemesys

> nemonics.blogspot.com (like Redgie said, if Blogspot EVER works

again!)

>

> --

 

I know what you mean....they said that it was a T-1 server or

something and that it would take about 2 days to fix! AUUUURRRGH! I

don't think I can wait that long. Growr...

 

Redgie

> Go away! Or I shall taunt you a second time!

 

 

390 From: "Reagan Bockhold"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:42am

Subject: Kaycee--live via satellite!!! dawoman598@...

Send Email

 

The Kaycee story was on our local news in OKC, too. They interviewed

Julie Fullbright. She seemed to be doing OK, she was just confused on

why Debbie did that.

 

There's an article about it too,, in our newspaper:

 

http://www.oklahoman.com

 

Hope this stuff helps!!

 

Redgie

 

http://redgie.blogspot.com

 

 

391 From: "halcyon"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 4:46am

Subject: Re: Halcyon's show this evening... halcyon@...

Send Email

 

There was about 2 minutes of negativity in a 60 minute call-in radio

show. I found the rest of the callers healing and encouraging.

 

I felt the love. :)

 

Thanks to everyone who tuned in or called.

 

You can hear the archive by clicking the "latest show: Listen Now"

link on the left side of:

http://www.citizenx.com/lounge/lounge.asp?id=18

 

or try this direct link:

http://img2.com/asx/firstluuuv05-23-01.asx

 

-Halcyon

 

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Tiffany Ring" wrote:

> *sigh* that kind of stuff is completely uncalled for. Wishing

death on

> anyone is, well, just as sick as what they did, in my never-to-be-

humble

> opinion.

>

> Tiffany Ring-Mulroy

> * Deco-Rations Design

> http://www.deco-rations.com

>

> * Intellectual Suicide

> http://www.intellectualsuicide.com

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: velocityiseverything@y...

> [mailto:velocityiseverything@y...]

> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:58 PM

> To: kaycee-nicole@y...

> Subject: kaycee-nicole Re: Halcyon's show this evening...

>

>

> --- In kaycee-nicole@y..., memorable_for_you2001@y... wrote:

> > I have been listening to Halcyon's show tonight

>

> >However, Kelli Swenson is a freshman in high school. In all

> >likelihood she has

> > nothing to do with this horrible scheme of her mother's

>

> According to the faq on this group Kelli and her pals started the

> whole thing and Debbie just took it to a logical conclusion.

>

> This whole family is a bunch of emotion fuckers and I hope they

die a

> slow and humiliating death at the hands of large dangerous escaped

> Negroes...

>

> You know, like 'In Cold Blood', that was in Kansaw too.

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

> Say you love them

> with a DOMAIN NAME!

> www.

>

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@y...

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

 

 

392 From: mistress_misercordia@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:00am

Subject: new member mistress_misercordia@...

Send Email

 

Hi. Some of you may know me, but most of you will not. I found this

page through a link on a page that was linked to Coolsig Forum, which

is where I met "Kaycee." I too was drawn in by her sad story,

inspired by her spirit and her will, deeply saddened by her "death",

and angered when I found out it was a hoax. As those of you who may

know someone from Coolsig called "Epiphany" know, it is very hard for

me to trust people online, but "Kaycee" seemed very real to me. So

real, in fact, that when she "died", I set up a memorial Website for

her. I have not taken it down yet, but I will be changing it soon.

This is very hard for me to write, but I feel I should share my

thoughts with someone who I know will understand. I just wish that if

this Debbie person had wanted to share the stories of other people

who had died of cancer, she would have posted their stories online

rather than creating a fictional story like she did. It makes more

sense, and would have hurt less people.

 

Ellie, AKA Epiphany

 

 

393 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 5:53am

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee bonni@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Sara" wrote:

> Has it occurred to anybody besides me that now Debbie has the URL

of

> our little investigative club here? creepy.

 

Well, in that case, I'd like to repeat what I wrote in my weblog

about her attitude and what was posted in the Peabody newspaper:

 

 

First of all, I'm glad that this has been publicized in her home

town. The town apparently has a population of about 1349. It's a

small town. As it happens, I've lived in a small town and I know just

how they work. This woman's name is going to be mud for a long time,

maybe forever (small towns have long memories). She'll walk down the

street and people will whisper and avoid eye contact. She'll go into

a room and people will stop talking and look away hurriedly. People

will point and laugh behind her back. This is how small towns are, or

at least, this is how every small town I've ever lived in was. She's

going to be the brunt of jokes and whisperings for a long time.

 

Good. Sorry to sound so nasty and mean, but she deserves to be

exposed in her hometown for the fraud that she is. Karma, you know.

What goes around comes around. What you sow, you reap. And in earlier

posts I was a lot less angry, but that's because I hadn't read some

of her comments on the situation. Comments like:

 

"I am a moral person."

 

Accepting gifts on behalf of an imaginary person you did everything

in your power to persuade people was a real person is moral? Whose

morals are we going by here? Apparently Debbie professes

Christianity, and I'm pretty sure that this level of deception

and "bearing false witness" is not part of the overall notion

of "moral" behavior by the usual terms of Christianity.

 

"I lived with it every day, and felt guilty every day."

 

Then why did you keep doing it? Why did you get someone (your

daughter?) to talk to people on the phone? Why did you continue to

send out pictures of "Kaycee"? Why did you keep up the charade for

years? Call me a cynic, but I think you felt guilty only after you

were discovered.

 

"It's been a nightmare for the past week. I didn't know the reactions

would be so strong."

 

You made your bed, so I have no pity on you for the "nightmare"

you've experienced. You set yourself up, in an international forum,

to take a big fall. Now that you've fallen, you've only got yourself

to blame.

 

As for the comment about not knowing reactions would be so strong,

what do you take us for? Robots? All those people who bought gifts

for "Kaycee", who sent presents, who gave their artwork to Kaycee,

who invested themselves in her struggle and her "life" and then

her "death" and you didn't know reactions would be so strong?

 

"It was not intended to hurt anyone or to get money."

 

Then why the hell did you set up a P.O.Box and publicize it

on "Kaycee's" blog? Why did you make it so easy for people to send

gifts? Why did you accept the gifts they sent? You never intended to

hurt anyone or get money, but you intended to receive cards, gifts,

letters, and apparently a whole collection of baseball caps to

cover "Kaycee's" bald head? Give us a break, Debbie.

 

Apparently Debbie is being investigated by the police and the FBI,

presumably on charges of mail fraud. She also sent out photographs of

a real person (a young lady named Julie with whom Debbie appears to

have had something of an excessive interest), which may also be a

crime. There may be other charges involved, who knows. Even if no

criminal or civil charges are ever filed, though, she'll have to put

up with being infamous in a small town, and that's a pretty

uncomfortable way to have to live.

 

Look, I still think the woman is mentally ill. I still think that

anyone who would go to such extreme lengths to carry out a hoax this

lengthy and this intricate is clearly going on some bizarre inner

agenda (probably to get attention and affection, something a few

people have called "Munchausen-by-email" syndrome). But the thing

that angers me the most is she seems to still be in denial of her own

horrible actions. She apologizes, but it's with a "poor little me"

attitude. She's moral, she didn't "mean" to hurt people, she

didn't "solicit" gifts, she "didn't know" people felt so strongly,

she had "good intentions" (and we all know which road is paved with

those). Well, it won't wash. I've done things almost as stupid as

this (not on such a large scale, though), and when I did the "I'm

sorry, I didn't know, I didn't mean it, I had good intentions," crap

I was shirking my responsibility, and so is she.

 

I hope she gets some help, I really do. And until she does, I hope

the residents of Peabody, Kansas make her feel every stare, every

jeer, and every joke they make about her. It seems fitting that she

be mocked in a public forum, considering that she mocked so many in a

public forum with her trickery and "good intentions".

 


bonni

http://bonni.net/

 

 

394 From: jl

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:05am

Subject: Go, Bonni jl@...

Send Email

 

ditto to everything you said, even though i wasn't personally

affected by this woman's charade

 

jl

--

^.~~.^.~~.^

Sleep is a totally inadequate substitute for caffeine.

^.~~.^.~~.^

http://timewaits.com

 

396 From: "matt"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:32am

Subject: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

> As the hoax unfolded, some people suspected that I was involved.

> (Thank you to everyone who defended me.)

 

Halycon, considering how close you were to the major perpetrator, can

you at least understand why people had concerns regarding your

involvement?

 

There were some accusations tossed your way, but there were also many

valid questions people thought you could answer. The reason this hoax

came to light was because people (Debbie) refused to answer

questions, and by withdrawing before Julie's photo was discovered you

added to an incredibly suspicious atmosphere. I know you probably

created that suspicion unwittingly, but at that point the people who

were skeptical of "KayCee" had been proven right. It's fair to say

everyone wanted to know just how far down the rabbit hole went.

 

 

> A few others simply felt I was a "compassion Nazi."

 

The compassion nazi statement was in incredibly poor taste. I'm

afraid some comments I made in defense of another person (which

didn't validate his theory, only cleared up a misconception) led to

those statements.

 

While I didn't say it, I apologize for it.

 

 

> Or that

> I was exploiting Kaycee to intentionally pull at people's

> heartstrings

> or further my church of optimism. *sigh*

 

Since very few people wanted to answer any questions, all anyone had

to work with was a bunch of circumstantial evidence and hypotheses.

The possibility that KayCee was a creation between you, Randall and

some person in the Midwest was just as viable as that KayCee wasn't a

real person at all.

 

I realize you feel like you were being sucked into a conspiracy

theory, but the fact is you played a large part of a huge hoax. As it

turned out, not as large as Debbie, but a large part nonetheless.

It's only natural that questions would eventually point in your

direction.

 

> I'm bothered that

> spreading optimism is even considered a bad thing.

 

Anyone who denigrates you for being a joyful person or spreading joy

is just being a crank.

 

I'm very sorry for your loss. Both when KayCee died and when she

became a fiction.

 

 

 

matt@...

(I never check my yahoo mail)

 

 

397 From: Aaron Dickey

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:41am

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon wnnaaron@...

Send Email

 

--- matt wrote:

 

> > A few others simply felt I was a "compassion Nazi."

>

> The compassion nazi statement was in incredibly poor taste. I'm

> afraid some comments I made in defense of another person (which

> didn't validate his theory, only cleared up a misconception) led to

> those statements.

>

> While I didn't say it, I apologize for it.

 

That's good, 'cause I'm not going to apologize for saying it. (And it was my

statement.) That phrase was not aimed at halcyon, but at two other specific

individuals who were trying to suppress a theory of mine through the use of

outright lies. I do apologize if halcyon interpreted it as being aimed at him;

I assure him it was not.

 

And "poor taste?" That's simply a phrase people use to establish a false moral

superiority over others and attempt to suppress unwanted statements. Let's use

it in a sentence, shall we? "It was in poor taste for any of you to dare

question the legitimacy of this beautiful young cancer victim, Kaycee Nicole."

 

--Aaron

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

398 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:45am

Subject: Re: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon jr@...

Send Email

 

Just a word of advice..... you might want to leave out Nazi next time...

----- Original Message -----

From: Aaron Dickey

To: kaycee-nicole@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:41 AM

Subject: Re: kaycee-nicole Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon

 

 

--- matt wrote:

 

> > A few others simply felt I was a "compassion Nazi."

>

> The compassion nazi statement was in incredibly poor taste. I'm

> afraid some comments I made in defense of another person (which

> didn't validate his theory, only cleared up a misconception) led to

> those statements.

>

> While I didn't say it, I apologize for it.

 

That's good, 'cause I'm not going to apologize for saying it. (And it was my

statement.) That phrase was not aimed at halcyon, but at two other specific

individuals who were trying to suppress a theory of mine through the use of

outright lies. I do apologize if halcyon interpreted it as being aimed at him;

I assure him it was not.

 

And "poor taste?" That's simply a phrase people use to establish a false moral

superiority over others and attempt to suppress unwanted statements. Let's use

it in a sentence, shall we? "It was in poor taste for any of you to dare

question the legitimacy of this beautiful young cancer victim, Kaycee Nicole."

 

--Aaron

 

______________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions.yahoo.com/

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

kaycee-nicole-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

 

 

 

 

399 From: "matt"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:57am

Subject: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon captcrackpipe@...

Send Email

 

Aaron, you're a smart person. I just wish you could use a little more

tact.

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., wrote:

> Just a word of advice..... you might want to leave out Nazi next

time...

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Aaron Dickey

> To: kaycee-nicole@y...

> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:41 AM

> Subject: Re: kaycee-nicole Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon

>

>

 

 

400 From: "Cassie"

Date: Fri May 25, 2001 0:22am

Subject: media coverage star8@...

Send Email

 

The Kaycee story has been briefly mentioned in a story in Australia's national newspaper, The Australian, both in print and online.

 

http://australianit.news.com.au/common/storyPage/0,3811,2032359%5E501,00.html

 

The relevant stuff is at the bottom.

 

Cassie

http://transgress.net

 

 

 

401 From: "Tara"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:18am

Subject: Re: Kansas TV station news story tara@...

Send Email

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Kristin

To:

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 11:26 PM

Subject: Re: kaycee-nicole Kansas TV station news story

 

 

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Tara"

>

>

>

> > and it gives the impression the blog thing lasted two years... and

> > that the daughter came up with the cancer idea... and that KC

> > supposedly died of cancer... etc... etc...

> > anyone feel like making a list and protesting?

>

> No one has any proof that this isn't true, either.

>

> There is so much wild conjecture out there - don't assume that if

you see it

> on this list, or on metafilter, it is fact. All anyone really knows

is that

> a woman named Debbie Swenson rented a PO box, a guy calling himself

BWG

> hosted her site, and Halcyon Styn promoted the hell out it. And that

is all

> you all know.

 

snip

 

well, I do know for sure that the blog didn't last two years, and that

KC did not supposedly die of cancer, and that the NY whatever article

mentioning KC had nothing to do with the popularity of her blog.

 

I guess you could call those things facts, and that they were

inexactly reported in the article I was talking about. If they managed

to get those (blatant) facts wrong, I'm not very sure that I'll trust

what they say about the rest of the stuff, if it contradicts what is

exposed in the other, seemingly more accurate articles.

 

Tara

Je réponds au mieux de mes connaissances...

Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org

Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net

 

 

402 From: jgrimm@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:23am

Subject: No villians here jgrimm@...

Send Email

 

The following is an edited-down version of a commentary on the Kaycee

Nicole affair that I posted to my personal site (the original is at

http://www.laboratorium.net/kaycee.html, and includes more background

information). I know relatively little about

Kaycee, and I've only imperfectly followed the recent discussion, but

I felt pretty strongly that some of the negative emotions unleashed

in the last few days are whipping around in ways that are likely only

to cause yet more pain.

 

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by

stupidity" goes Hanlon's Razor, and something like that applies

here. I hardly want to defend people I've never met to other people

I've never met, but still, I think there's more than enough pain and

unhappiness to go around. I tried to put myself in the shoes of the

various participants, and what I saw from that perspective made me

not so much angry as sad, sad in a weary and mournful way.

 

Kaycee drew an enormous amount of empathy from a great number of

people, and I'd hate to see that aspect of her strange story lost.


 

Debbie did something billions of people do every day. She lied. Like

everyone who lies, she had her reasons, about which the rest of us

can only speculate. Maybe she wished the lie were true, that "Kaycee"

were real. Maybe she realized that the fictional Kaycee's story was

capable of drawing more empathy than the real stories it retold.

Maybe she was flatted by the implicit complements Kaycee's fans paid

to her own creative skill, or maybe she found the writing itself

rewarding. Maybe she wanted to share with the world what her late

friends had meant to her, for others to experience that tragic joy,

not just hear about it secondhand. And maybe she wrote between tears,

desperately wishing her friends back to life, hoping somehow to give

back to them a little of what fate denied them.

 

Not an enormous lie, at least in the beginning. She changed a name,

she elided some details and made up some others, she attributed real

quotations to false people and vice-versa. And then, like any

compelling fiction, the lie took on a life of its own - Kaycee Nicole

lived! Friends gathered around and offered to help, the lie spread

and metastasized, Kaycee's circle grew as her story touched more and

more people. Phone calls were fabricated, wishlists and incidents,

and ultimately even a death announcement.

 

Debbie's deception achieved the status of betrayal. In itself, this

is an accomplishment: you cannot be betrayed by someone you did not

trust. People trusted Kaycee; they empathized with her. Debbie made

unwitting conspirators of them, made them parties to the lie, pledged

them to emotional compacts she knew to be shams. She could see how

deeply invested they were in her illusions. In the end, she tried to

let them down as gently as she could, but even her best wasn't good

enough, and it all came tumbling down.

 

In this, she is hardly different from anyone else who lies on matters

touching on the emotions. I'm sorry, that sounds like fun, but I've

already promised to pick my friend up at the airport then. Yes, I

will always love you and no, there is no one else. I tried to call

you on your birthday, but the line was busy. He said to tell you he

was sorry for everything before he passed away. We think that a well-

chosen lie has the power to mend a tear in the world; we think we can

shield other people from unpleasant truths. Sometimes we are right,

and sometimes we are wrong, and all too often we make a mess of it

without meaning to. You always hurt the ones you love.

 

And they could be hurt because the will to believe runs so deep in

the human psyche. At some crucial point in those first few years of

life, a child learns to start thinking of these sensory inputs as

sights and sounds, and then as faces and voices, and then, crucially,

as people, beings not unlike itself. And from that point on, there is

no going back, no, not ever.

 

We know that evidence can deceive us; we know not to believe what

strangers say; we know that all trust is inductive, uncertain,

unproven. And we ignore that knowledge in every minute of our waking

lives. Social engineering works for exactly the same reasons that

society works: we are by nature credulous, seeking, always seeking,

to empathize with the person opposite us. We see faces in rock

formations; we ascribe human motives to roulette wheels. We empathize

with characters we know to be fictional so strongly that we cry at

the end of E.T. and read tributes to Mrs. Landingham into the minutes

of the California State Assembly.

 

Our minds are primed to expect human response, to the point of seeing

intelligence where none inheres; when someone really is on the other

end of the line, the sense of recognition is so strong, so

overwhelming, that credulity is the order of the day. When someone

with talent and motivation sets their mind to deception, the odds are

already stacked in their favor. Literary fraud is as old as

literature; just ask Ern Malley and Prester John. There is nothing

about Debbie's deception that is qualitatively unique to the Internet

or to weblogging.

 

Debbie knew enough to write a convincing account. She got the

credibility-establishing details of disease and description right;

she got right the voice of a scared but joyful girl with leukemia;

she nailed the fears and emotions that resonated with her and

Kaycee's readers and correspondents. All of this came from somewhere

painfully real, or else she has a prodigious empathetic talent

herself. The biographical details, the day-to-day actions and

affirmations, well, those she faked, but those weren't the things

Kaycee's friends were responding to.

 

This is the part that tears me apart. It's the Stephen Glass story

all over again, only played out as tragedy. Debbie succeeded beyond

belief in sharing the stories she wanted to share and in making

profound human connections in Kaycee's name. Something powerful and

resonant took place here, but because of the fabrication baked into

Kaycee's story at the outset, it all may be lost. Kaycee's mourners'

genuine grief is hopelessly admixed with shock and disillusionment

now: the betrayal is inseparable from the trust it undermined. Kaycee

is lost in a sense worse than death; not only did she never exist,

but every meaningful experience her "existence" gave to other people

is itself now suspect.

 

Or is it? One might think that Debbie is now beyond trust, that there

is no way to stop this freefall back to the harsh and unyielding

earth of cold and verifiable first-person facts. But, then again, by

that token, there'd have been no way to stop the fall after the story

of Sheyla, or MoundsOfJoy, or, stretching a bit further,

OurFirstTime, or Kibo, or the LambdaMOO rape, or any of the other too-

numerous-to-mention well-publicized online line-blurring incidents of

recent years.

 

If we haven't learned our lesson by now, perhaps it's because it's a

lesson we shouldn't learn. We suspend our skepticism out of love, out

of love for humanity and for those souls close to us. We've all lied,

been lied to, lied to ourselves, lied and been lied to in love

itself, and yet we go on looking for human connections and blindly

believing when we think we may have found them. This time for sure.

 

 

403 From: dcurioni@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:29am

Subject: Re: media coverage dcurioni@...

Send Email

 

It is also on the online version of the major Italian newspaper:

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/05_Maggio/24/truffa.shtml

 

D

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Cassie" wrote:

> The Kaycee story has been briefly mentioned in a story in

Australia's national newspaper, The Australian, both in print and

online.

>

> http://australianit.news.com.au/common/storyPage/0,3811,2032359%

5E501,00.html

>

> The relevant stuff is at the bottom.

>

> Cassie

> http://transgress.net

 

 

404 From:

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 8:36am

Subject: Re: Re: media coverage jr@...

Send Email

 

Quit sending news links!! I want to go to sleep!!!

 

 

- J.R.

 

www.logboy.com/jr/main.asp

 

 

 

405 From: "Tara"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 7:56am

Subject: french some personal thoughts on the topic - no new info tara@...

Send Email

 

Here are a few thoughts of mine (in French) in reaction to one of my

friends' coverage of the story. No information, just a few ideas on

trust and why people feel angry about what is happening.

http://climbtothestars.org/archive/log2001may.php#3773275

just thought I'd let potentially interested french speakers know about

it.

Tara

 

Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org

[no tables! http://climbtothestars.org/coding/tableless.php]

Pompeurs Associés - http://pompage.net

 

 

406 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:52am

Subject: Re: Go, Bonni bonni@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jl wrote:

> ditto to everything you said, even though i wasn't personally

> affected by this woman's charade

 

Thanks. Neither was I. I just have this major problem with betrayal

and lies, and I know many others who WERE hurt by it. I

read "Kaycee's" journal now and then, but it didn't really snare me.

I don't know why it didn't, but I just never got that involved with

it.

 

I feel badly for the many who WERE hurt. I'm particularly moved by

Randall van der Woning. He seems like a genuinely decent man, and to

use and abuse him like this is terrible.

 

bonni

http://bonni.net/

 

 

407 From: adnan@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 11:33am

Subject: kaycee speaks one last time adnan@...

Send Email

 

fwd:

 

kaycee speaks one last time http://www.adnan.org/comix

 

 

408 From: sdenbes1@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 11:55am

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee sdenbes1@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Bonni Elizabeth Hall" wrote:

> "I lived with it every day, and felt guilty every day."

>

> Then why did you keep doing it? Why did you get someone (your

> daughter?) to talk to people on the phone? Why did you continue to

> send out pictures of "Kaycee"? Why did you keep up the charade for

> years? Call me a cynic, but I think you felt guilty only after you

> were discovered.

 

I think that at a certain point she got trapped by the lie, and didn't see how to get out. If you're only thinking in terms of the next day or so, then once this was in progress the only way to minimize pain to others was to keep going. (Naturally, that just made the pain worse in the long run, but it's clear she wasn't thinking about the long run -- or she would never have done it in the first place.)

 

Of course, when BWG decided to come visit then the crisis came, because there was no-one to visit. Which meant that Kaycee had to die. No other excuse would dissuade him from coming.

 

The immoral decision was to do it in the first place, but I don't think she really understood what she was doing in the first place.

 

 

409 From: "Nikki"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 11:59am

Subject: Re: No villians here blkbbwprincess@...

Send Email

 

> In this, she is hardly different from anyone else who lies on

matters

> touching on the emotions. I'm sorry, that sounds like fun, but I've

> already promised to pick my friend up at the airport then. Yes, I

> will always love you and no, there is no one else. I tried to call

> you on your birthday, but the line was busy. He said to tell you he

> was sorry for everything before he passed away. We think that a

well-

> chosen lie has the power to mend a tear in the world; we think we

can

> shield other people from unpleasant truths. Sometimes we are right,

> and sometimes we are wrong, and all too often we make a mess of it

> without meaning to. You always hurt the ones you love.

>

 

I know this is just a small sampling of your post. But it is the part

that stands out to me the most. Maybe I am going through my anger

stage but this extremly different from an average person. This lie,

deception was carried out for YEARS. YEARS...this is plain evil.

How deep this all went is beyond evil, all the other fictional

characters that came about that is simply beyond words.

 

I am not trying to pass judgement on many of the posters here and I

am definitely not up to starting anything but there seems to be an

overwhelming thought that the ones that thought they knew Kaycee were

stupid or just easily duped for not seeing the signs. There seems to

be different areas of the group:

 

Ones that saw that something was up

Ones that thought they knew Kaycee

Ones that recently stepped into all this drama

 

The mixture is beautiful the mixture is needed, but all I ask is for

some of you to put yourself in anothers groups shoes. And for some

people to be questioned as to what their part in all this was is the

real betrayal.

 

For the ones that spoke to Kaycee, received gifts, sent gifts, cards,

and gave of time what are we guility of. Nothing. We did what

anyone would do when they come in contact with someone that was like

Kaycee. You are drawn to them. I don't know if I can put into words

how it feels....not only did one person that you cared about and knew

for years die after fighting a long and hard fight with cancer, but

then to find out that all of it was a lie. It was all made up. How

were we to know it was fiction? Was the gifts we received fake?

Were the phone calls fake?

 

I guess that is why they say that it takes someone on the outside of

a situation to see things clearly. I am glad that someone did some

questioning. I am glad that the girl I came to love is not dead. I

am just grappling with the thoughts that she never lived at all.

 

And as Kaycee(Debbie) used to say..."I can see clearly now"

 

 

410 From: "Jim"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:15pm

Subject: Re: Go, Bonni jim@...

Send Email

 

> I feel badly for the many who WERE hurt. I'm particularly moved by

> Randall van der Woning. He seems like a genuinely decent man, and

to

> use and abuse him like this is terrible.

 

Randy (bwg) is a "genuinely decent man" ... perhaps too much so.

 

When Randy met "Kaycee" at Citizen X his father had recently died.

His father had cancer. His father raised him (and his brother and

sister) by himself.

 

Randy's mother died when he was two years old. She died of cancer.

 

While Randy was grieving he was open to this type of charade. A young

woman with cancer. Of course he would help.

 

Some would say that he got too close. I'd be one of them. But I'm not

Randy.

 

He feels foolish for being taken advantage of. He doesn't feel

foolish for loving.

 

 

411 From: saundra@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:39pm

Subject: Italian News Coverage saundra@...

Send Email

 

Didn't know if you guys had seen this one:

 

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/05_Maggio/24/truffa.shtml

 

Italian newspaper, Corriere della Sera

 

Saundra

 

 

412 From: rpgman@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:44pm

Subject: Looks like Randy is taking some much need time rpgman@...

Send Email

 

off.

 

Good for him.

 

"due to the excessive amount of bandwidth generated by recent events,

i am taking this week off from my site.

 

the costs are getting to be too high. i will be posting a press

release soon.

 

don't fret, i WILL be back."

 

~bwg

 

http://vanderwoning.com/

 

rpgman66

 

 

413 From: truesolace00@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:45pm

Subject: Does Debbie realize.. truesolace00@...

Send Email

 

I am curious to know that while Debbie has chosen to talk to the

press I wonder if she realizes that anything she says can be used

against her should the authorities chose to prosecute for this in a

court of law. I read the article in which Julie and her mother speak

out--it seems that although this has been a great shock they are

handling the matter the best they can.

 

 

414 From: truesolace00@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 0:48pm

Subject: Does Debbie realize truesolace00@...

Send Email

 

I wonder if Debbie realizes that what she is saying to the press can

be used against her in the court of law should charges be filed. Also

I noticed that Randall is taking time off as well....I think that it

is best---I feel so bad that he has been caught up in the center of

this storm especially considering that he lost his own loved ones to

cancer prior to meeting Debbie (KC). I pray that like all of us

deeply affected that he will one day find the answers but true peace

in this matter.

 

 

415 From: saundra@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:09pm

Subject: Dispatches from Peabody saundra@...

Send Email

 

One of the folks who works at the Peabody Gazette has been keeping me

updated, so I thought I'd pass on a little news from ground zero:

 

"Around 11:00 Eric (the editor for the Peabody Gazette/Marion

Register/Hillsboro) posted only Rick's article on last week's paper

site (which was the only thing available quickly I guess) and then it

sat there like that for a couple of hours until they got the whole

thing loaded..or down loaded...or whatever they do. I saw that you

visited along with TimeInc., Disney, the Wichita Eagle, and the msnbc

guy....plus a whole lot of dot edu's and such. I usually get 10 to 20

hits a day; more on Wed when the paper comes out....Saturday I had 11,

Sunday nite about 30, Monday 100 and Tues 100....right now I am almost

at a thousand over Tuesday nite's count. I have only had 1400 (and

some) hits TOTAL since I took this job in Feb. Poor Rick

Hattersley.....his town is 16 miles away, he did all the work and no

one knows it, tho of course eventually they will.

 

"It was on the 6 o'clock evening news (Wichita)...the news team that

was here went on to Oklahoma and interviewed Julie and showed her

baby-to-basketball pics, etc. I expect it will be on the 10:00 also

and the Wichita Eagle will carry it tomorrow.

 

"I drove past Debbie's house today several times and there was NO sign

of life. They have about 4 vehicles and every one of them was gone

(neither of her kids drive.) The channel 12 guys said they had called

her last night and taped the conversation (not against the law in KS

and her comments were part of the story on t.v.) and she told them

that they could interview her on camera, but she declined when they

showed up this morning. Anyway tonight there was a car there as we

came home from the restaurant and the trunk lid was up and a 12 or 13

yr old boy was hauling bags out of the house. Guess she hasn't heard

the one about, "No matter where I run, there I am."

 

Saundra

 

 

416 From: "Laurie"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:10pm

Subject: Re: No villians here wallflower67@...

Send Email

 

I feel SO bad for those of you who knew her from the CC and CitizenX

days. Sure I got a lot out of reading the Kaycee blog. If it were

just people like me who tuned in the last few months and didn't get

personally involved with her, I'd say the whole thing was deceitful,

but no real harm done and maybe some good. But to call people and cry

about her non-existant situation, involve herself in their and their

families lives, even if "only" online or on the phone, that's pretty

out there. That's not just writing a story. At that point I can't

say gee, she just must not have thought about the impact. She had to

think of it at some point when she was talking to real people on the

phone, unless she's just too mentally ill to be capable of that. She

wrote a great story for those of us who didn't live through it with

her. But there are a handful of people who were emotionally

manipulated, and there had to be some intent to do just that.

 

 

 

 

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Nikki" wrote:

 

> I know this is just a small sampling of your post. But it is the

part

> that stands out to me the most. Maybe I am going through my anger

> stage but this extremly different from an average person. This lie,

> deception was carried out for YEARS. YEARS...this is plain evil.

> How deep this all went is beyond evil, all the other fictional

> characters that came about that is simply beyond words.

>

> I am not trying to pass judgement on many of the posters here and I

> am definitely not up to starting anything but there seems to be an

> overwhelming thought that the ones that thought they knew Kaycee

were

> stupid or just easily duped for not seeing the signs. There seems

to

> be different areas of the group:

>

> Ones that saw that something was up

> Ones that thought they knew Kaycee

> Ones that recently stepped into all this drama

>

> The mixture is beautiful the mixture is needed, but all I ask is for

> some of you to put yourself in anothers groups shoes. And for some

> people to be questioned as to what their part in all this was is the

> real betrayal.

>

> For the ones that spoke to Kaycee, received gifts, sent gifts,

cards,

> and gave of time what are we guility of. Nothing. We did what

> anyone would do when they come in contact with someone that was like

> Kaycee. You are drawn to them. I don't know if I can put into

words

> how it feels....not only did one person that you cared about and

knew

> for years die after fighting a long and hard fight with cancer, but

> then to find out that all of it was a lie. It was all made up. How

> were we to know it was fiction? Was the gifts we received fake?

> Were the phone calls fake?

>

> I guess that is why they say that it takes someone on the outside of

> a situation to see things clearly. I am glad that someone did some

> questioning. I am glad that the girl I came to love is not dead. I

> am just grappling with the thoughts that she never lived at all.

>

> And as Kaycee(Debbie) used to say..."I can see clearly now"

 

 

417 From: "Laurie"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:10pm

Subject: Re: No villians here wallflower67@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., "Nikki" wrote:

> > In this, she is hardly different from anyone else who lies on

> matters

> > touching on the emotions. I'm sorry, that sounds like fun, but

I've

> > already promised to pick my friend up at the airport then. Yes, I

> > will always love you and no, there is no one else. I tried to call

> > you on your birthday, but the line was busy. He said to tell you

he

> > was sorry for everything before he passed away. We think that a

> well-

> > chosen lie has the power to mend a tear in the world; we think we

> can

> > shield other people from unpleasant truths. Sometimes we are

right,

> > and sometimes we are wrong, and all too often we make a mess of it

> > without meaning to. You always hurt the ones you love.

> >

>

> I know this is just a small sampling of your post. But it is the

part

> that stands out to me the most. Maybe I am going through my anger

> stage but this extremly different from an average person. This lie,

> deception was carried out for YEARS. YEARS...this is plain evil.

> How deep this all went is beyond evil, all the other fictional

> characters that came about that is simply beyond words.

>

> I am not trying to pass judgement on many of the posters here and I

> am definitely not up to starting anything but there seems to be an

> overwhelming thought that the ones that thought they knew Kaycee

were

> stupid or just easily duped for not seeing the signs. There seems

to

> be different areas of the group:

>

> Ones that saw that something was up

> Ones that thought they knew Kaycee

> Ones that recently stepped into all this drama

>

> The mixture is beautiful the mixture is needed, but all I ask is for

> some of you to put yourself in anothers groups shoes. And for some

> people to be questioned as to what their part in all this was is the

> real betrayal.

>

> For the ones that spoke to Kaycee, received gifts, sent gifts,

cards,

> and gave of time what are we guility of. Nothing. We did what

> anyone would do when they come in contact with someone that was like

> Kaycee. You are drawn to them. I don't know if I can put into

words

> how it feels....not only did one person that you cared about and

knew

> for years die after fighting a long and hard fight with cancer, but

> then to find out that all of it was a lie. It was all made up. How

> were we to know it was fiction? Was the gifts we received fake?

> Were the phone calls fake?

>

> I guess that is why they say that it takes someone on the outside of

> a situation to see things clearly. I am glad that someone did some

> questioning. I am glad that the girl I came to love is not dead. I

> am just grappling with the thoughts that she never lived at all.

>

> And as Kaycee(Debbie) used to say..."I can see clearly now"

 

 

418 From: "Laurie"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:13pm

Subject: Re: No villians here wallflower67@...

Send Email

 

sorry about the duplicate posts

 

 

419 From: "Bonni Elizabeth Hall"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:21pm

Subject: Re: No villians here bonni@...

Send Email

 

I don't think Debbie is a villian. I think she's mentally ill. I

really, truly, seriously do. I find her actions reprehensible, NOT

because she created a fictional daughter to tell a story about dying

from cancer, but because she went to EXTREME lengths to make the

world believe that Kaycee was a real person. I could easily

understand the fiction. I can't understand why she set up a P.O.Box,

publicized its existance, accepted gifts, sent out pictures of Julie

Fullbright signed "Kaycee", put someone on the phone who apparently

sounded very like a teenaged girl... I GET the fiction. I don't get

the intense web of extreme lies, appropriation of someone else's

pictures, sending/receiving email as Kaycee, chatting in the persona

of Kaycee, etc. ad nauseum.

 

She's not mentally healthy. No sane person would do this. No person

with normal boundaries and a healthy self-image would do something

this perverse, complex, and far-reaching for what appears to be some

sort of self-gratification in the form of the outpouring of support

and love from people on the net.

 

She's not evil. She's sick. She needs help. I have tremendous pity

for that. I just hope to God she gets it, for her sake and the sake

of her family. If she would go to these lengths to get whatever it

was she needed (and apparently got) by pretending to be a beautiful

dying girl, who knows what she'll do next to feed whatever need that

is. I could believe that she didn't fully understand what was going

on, the power of the internet as a medium, and so forth, except for

the P.O.Box, the girl on the phone, the photographs, the gifts...

 

bonni

http://bonni.net/

 

 

420 From: kumquat@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:28pm

Subject: Re: Dispatches from Peabody kumquat@...

Send Email

 

"I drove past Debbie's house today several times and there was NO sign

of life. They have about 4 vehicles and every one of them was gone

(neither of her kids drive.) ...

 

Welcome to life in the small

town.

 

 

421 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:01pm

Subject: Re: No villians here mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., jgrimm@l... wrote:

> In the end, she tried to let them down as gently as she could,

> but even her best wasn't good enough, and it all came tumbling

> down.

 

I don't accept this premise at all. It's cartoonish to call Debbie

a "villain," but you're way too quick to minimize the severity of

what she did to a lot of people in this hoax. These weren't just "the

check's in the mail" lies. It was an elaborate betrayal of

relationships, some extremely close over the period of a year or more:

 

... talking daily with Randall and listening to his plan to fly to

Kansas, only to kill off Kaycee before he could

 

... accepting gifts from children who skipped their allowance to buy

her things

 

... betraying the trust of a neighbor who loaned her family photos

 

Debbie Swenson had several ways she could have minimized this. She

didn't have to make the story more credible by talking to people on

the phone, renting a P.O. box, and using someone else's photos

without her permission.

 

When it was clear she had been caught, Debbie could have come clean

and reached out to people she hurt. None of that happened -- it

doesn't even appear that she called the Fullbrights before we

identified Julie's photos. The only real contrition I'm seeing is her

deeply felt sorrow at being caught.

 

 

422 From: dhartung@...

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:12pm

Subject: Re: media coverage dhartung@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., dcurioni@y... wrote:

> It is also on the online version of the major Italian newspaper:

>

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/05_Maggio/24/truffa.shtml

>

 

Google translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?

hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/05_Maggio/24

/truffa.shtml

 

 

423 From: "Rogers Cadenhead"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:13pm

Subject: Re: Peabody's Paper Reports on Kaycee mail@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., sdenbes1@s... wrote:

> The immoral decision was to do it in the first place, but I don't

> think she really understood what she was doing in the first place.

 

I don't think it's fair to say this is all the consequences of a

single unethical decision. She made a series of them, ignoring

numerous opportunities to do the right thing.

 

At any time, she could have claimed that Kaycee wanted more privacy,

stopped updating the diary and ended the phone calls and

correspondence with her online acquaintances.

 

 

424 From: "Jon Sullivan"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:16pm

Subject: Re: Burned by Kaycee? jon@...

Send Email

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., truesolace00@e... wrote:

> The shirt concept is

> *inappropiate*.

 

I don't understand. Is the humor inappropriate? I don't see how. No

one died. People like Halcyon and BWG (both of whom still have my

respect) may be "grieving", it's time we recognized that no one died.

 

We got played people. It's not unhealthy to take a step back and find

some humor in the situation. A laugh will do you good at this point.

 

Some other shirt ideas:

 

"As a matter o' fact, Debbie Swensen and I have been seen together."

 

"No! I swear! I'm not Debbie Swensen."

 

"Peabody Kansas - All your PO box are belong to us."

 

Jon Sullivan

http://www.jonsullivan.com/

 

 

425 From: "John H Stevenson"

Date: Thu May 24, 2001 2:30pm

Subject: Re: my feelings -- a reply to halcyon tranquileye@...

Send Email

 

Aaron, what exactly is a "compassion Nazi"?

 

John

 

--- In kaycee-nicole@y..., Aaron Dickey wrote:

> --- matt wrote:

>

> > > A few others simply felt I was a "compassion Nazi."

> >

> > The compassion nazi statement was in incredibly poor taste. I'm

> > afraid some comments I made in defense of another person (which

> > didn't validate his theory, only cleared up a misconception) led

to

> > those statements.

> >

> > While I didn't say it, I apologize for it.

>

> That's good, 'cause I'm not going to apologize for saying it. (And

it was my

> statement.) That phrase was not aimed at halcyon, but at two other

specific

> individuals who were trying to suppress a theory of mine through

the use of

> outright lies. I do apologize if halcyon interpreted it as being

aimed at him;

> I assure him it was not.

>

> And "poor taste?" That's simply a phrase people use to establish a

false moral

> superiority over others and attempt to suppress unwanted

statements. Let's use

> it in a sentence, shall we? "It was in poor taste for any of you to

dare

> question the legitimacy of this beautiful young cancer victim,

Kaycee Nicole."

>

> --Aaron

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